Discussion:
Autism and (accusations of) sophistry
(too old to reply)
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 07:19:02 UTC
Permalink
I've been wondering about autism and sophistry, and accusations
thereof. In particular, is there a perception that autistics are prone
to using deceptive arguments?

The reason I was wondering is that autistic communication is often
seen as pedantic, long-winded, overly technical and complex, overly
formal etc. While "sophistry" refers to any deceptive argument, when
someone says "sophistry" I tend to think of the kind of long-winded
overly-complex argument deliberately constructed to look clever and
convincing, but to be difficult to parse and critically evaluate.

It's easy to think such an argument could only fool the gullible or
those who want to believe anyway - but that disregards some fairly
basic psychology. When people have an idea that seems to work, on the
whole they just run with it. Serious examination of the idea usually
only happens when people have some reason for doubt. It's a kind of
economics thing really - we don't have the time to thoroughly analyse
every idea we're exposed to, so we have to take a lot on trust.

But obviously people are aware that deceptiveness is a fact of life,
and react to (generally very unreliably) warning signs.

The problem is that a valid argument can superficially look very much
like that kind of sophistry. In fact another common kind of sophistry
is to make an accusation of sophistry - once the idea is planted, many
people won't bother thinking through an argument for themselves - the
superficial appearance is "confirmation" enough.

Arguing after the fact is likely to be problematic - adding even more
verbiage, even more complexity, and an even greater chance that
readers will be swayed by the superficial appearance rather than the
logic. The obvious pre-emptive strategy is to keep arguments simple,
straightforward, direct and easy to understand. But that may be easier
said than done.


OK - so that's my line of thought, but is there any *real* perception
of autists as being prone to sophistry?

Googling mostly leads to "discussions" of autism issues. But while I
found quite a few accusations, that doesn't mean much. There were
certainly accusations by autistics, as well as of autistics.

So - any thoughts? Personal experiences? References to anything more
formal?
Eva
2010-05-20 10:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Yes, during my life I've often been accused of making deceptive arguments
when that was not my intent. In fact I'm not even capable of the kind of
thinking that would produce such an argument (designed to entrap rather than
to convince logically). One of my exes, for example, used to say bitterly
"Yeah, you're good with words." It was not meant as a compliment.

Good post! Really resonated with me.

Eva
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 17:12:55 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:47:34 -0400, "Eva"
Post by Eva
Yes, during my life I've often been accused of making deceptive arguments
when that was not my intent. In fact I'm not even capable of the kind of
thinking that would produce such an argument (designed to entrap rather than
to convince logically). One of my exes, for example, used to say bitterly
"Yeah, you're good with words." It was not meant as a compliment.
Yes - that sounds kind of like an everyday way to accuse someone of
sophistry. Hmmm...

How about a dismissive "very clever"? - I think I've heard that one
quite a bit.

Does a dismissive "I've heard that before" count? (Implying that what
you said is an old tired joke that's not even funny any more? -
Hmmm... at least that makes some kind of sense of it).
Bob Badour
2010-05-20 17:42:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 06:47:34 -0400, "Eva"
Post by Eva
Yes, during my life I've often been accused of making deceptive arguments
when that was not my intent. In fact I'm not even capable of the kind of
thinking that would produce such an argument (designed to entrap rather than
to convince logically). One of my exes, for example, used to say bitterly
"Yeah, you're good with words." It was not meant as a compliment.
Yes - that sounds kind of like an everyday way to accuse someone of
sophistry. Hmmm...
How about a dismissive "very clever"? - I think I've heard that one
quite a bit.
Here's the thing: The snide "very clever" is sophistry.
Post by Stephen Horne
Does a dismissive "I've heard that before" count? (Implying that what
you said is an old tired joke that's not even funny any more? -
Hmmm... at least that makes some kind of sense of it).
The dismissal is likewise sophistry. Depending on the person and the
situation, I might be inclined to reply to something like that with:
"Oh, so you're just closed-minded, then."
Raving
2010-05-20 18:06:04 UTC
Permalink
Sophistry Algorithm:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7740955/Scientists-devise-algorithm-to-detect-sarcasm.html

Microsoft will patent an algorithm for muxing in a 'baloney'
qualifier.

:-D
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 19:17:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT), Raving
Post by Raving
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7740955/Scientists-devise-algorithm-to-detect-sarcasm.html
Microsoft will patent an algorithm for muxing in a 'baloney'
qualifier.
No - the money isn't in detecting bad arguments. It's in generating
bad arguments!

Trouble is - well, anyone who's read Douglas Adams "Dirk Gentlys
Holistic Detective Agency" will realise that the idea has been around
for a very long time. Maybe the algorithm has too? And as the book
observes, it would be most effective if kept secret.

So why not suppress the book? Why didn't the Stargate guys suppress
the Wormhole Xtreme show?

Expect an extremely convincing post to appear shortly, making out that
I'm the kind of guy who wears a tin-foil hat etc ;-)

Really, Raving, you should put a bit more thought into your
Unhandled Exception in ridicule-original-author.cpp at line 3073
Please contact your software vendor
Raving
2010-05-20 19:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT), Raving
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7740955/Scientists-devise-...
Microsoft will patent an algorithm for muxing in a 'baloney'
qualifier.
United States Patent 7,437,290
Danieli October 14, 2008
Automatic censorship of audio data for broadcast

Microsoft's Patent
See http://tinyurl.com/697dhy
Post by Stephen Horne
No - the money isn't in detecting bad arguments. It's in generating
bad arguments!
Trouble is - well, anyone who's read Douglas Adams "Dirk Gentlys
Holistic Detective Agency" will realise that the idea has been around
for a very long time. Maybe the algorithm has too? And as the book
observes, it would be most effective if kept secret.
"Dark Star" (1974) directed by John Carpenter
(real time censorship of the audio portion of video log entries)

See http://tinyurl.com/29rfyvj if necessary

"Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency" (1987)

ummm ... Ridicule has been around for a long time as well.

See (Word History) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cynic
Post by Stephen Horne
So why not suppress the book? Why didn't the Stargate guys suppress
the Wormhole Xtreme show?
Expect an extremely convincing post to appear shortly, making out that
I'm the kind of guy who wears a tin-foil hat etc ;-)
Really, Raving, you should put a bit more thought into your
Unhandled Exception in ridicule-original-author.cpp at line 3073
Please contact your software vendor
(but I do *like* the idea of a bad argument generator.)

Example:

10 PRINT "BAD ARGUNEMT'
20 G0TO 5
3o END

There is much money to be made in debugging bad algorithms.

:-P
Eva
2010-05-21 00:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 11:06:04 -0700 (PDT), Raving
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7740955/Scientists-devise-...
Microsoft will patent an algorithm for muxing in a 'baloney'
qualifier.
United States Patent 7,437,290
Danieli October 14, 2008
Automatic censorship of audio data for broadcast

Microsoft's Patent
See http://tinyurl.com/697dhy
Post by Stephen Horne
No - the money isn't in detecting bad arguments. It's in generating
bad arguments!
Trouble is - well, anyone who's read Douglas Adams "Dirk Gentlys
Holistic Detective Agency" will realise that the idea has been around
for a very long time. Maybe the algorithm has too? And as the book
observes, it would be most effective if kept secret.
"Dark Star" (1974) directed by John Carpenter
(real time censorship of the audio portion of video log entries)

See http://tinyurl.com/29rfyvj if necessary

"Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency" (1987)

ummm ... Ridicule has been around for a long time as well.

See (Word History) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cynic
Post by Stephen Horne
So why not suppress the book? Why didn't the Stargate guys suppress
the Wormhole Xtreme show?
Expect an extremely convincing post to appear shortly, making out that
I'm the kind of guy who wears a tin-foil hat etc ;-)
Really, Raving, you should put a bit more thought into your
Unhandled Exception in ridicule-original-author.cpp at line 3073
Please contact your software vendor
(but I do *like* the idea of a bad argument generator.)

Example:

10 PRINT "BAD ARGUNEMT'
20 G0TO 5
3o END

There is much money to be made in debugging bad algorithms.

:-P
-------------
Now I've completely lost track of what you guys are talking about....because
to me, "Dark Star" is a Grateful Dead song. An instrumental, actually.

Eva
Stephen Horne
2010-05-21 00:57:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 20:30:58 -0400, "Eva"
Post by Eva
Now I've completely lost track of what you guys are talking about....because
to me, "Dark Star" is a Grateful Dead song. An instrumental, actually.
That's a shame - the scene where the guy argues philosophy to try to
convince the bomb not to explode... classic!
Raving
2010-05-21 01:58:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 20:30:58 -0400, "Eva"
Post by Eva
Now I've completely lost track of what you guys are talking about....because
to me, "Dark Star" is a Grateful Dead song.  An instrumental, actually.
That's a shame - the scene where the guy argues philosophy to try to
convince the bomb not to explode... classic!
Great sophistry from the bomb :-D
Alice
2010-05-20 22:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
Expect an extremely convincing post to appear shortly, making out that
I'm the kind of guy who wears a tin-foil hat etc ;-)
can i have a picture? :)
Alice
2010-05-20 22:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raving
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/news/7740955/Scientists-devise-algorithm-to-detect-sarcasm.html
Microsoft will patent an algorithm for muxing in a 'baloney'
qualifier.
:-D
i need this program!

(does this thing get autistic sarcasm, which i've heard we're supposedly
incapable of? :)

-alice
astri
2010-05-21 05:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alice
(does this thing get autistic sarcasm, which i've heard we're
supposedly incapable of? :)
lol

-- astri

======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 19:02:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:42:15 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
The dismissal is likewise sophistry. Depending on the person and the
"Oh, so you're just closed-minded, then."
The trouble is that it's a tit-for-tat dismissal.

If you're among friends and reciprocal reactions are accepted, that's
probably fine (nonverbal issues aside). Maybe distracting people from
the original point, though.

But if you're the lowly autistic who is supposed to know his place, a
tit-for-tat response will be seen as an escalation.

Not that I have a better answer.

I tend to just ignore it. Issues with that...

1. It's still a kind of tit-for-tat dismissal.
2. It can be seen as passive acceptance, deference, submissiveness.
3. It can be seen as a kind of "I'm not listening" refusal to see
reason.
4. In the friends case, it can be seen as a failure to move on and
join in with the reciprocal-teasing social-bonding exercise.

So, every possible disadvantage that I can think of for yours (still a
tit-for-tat...) plus more.

That last one has me thinking. It shines a new light on some peoples
reactions to my descriptions of autism issues. I think I'm making an
important point for the benefit of others. They think I'm just
whining. Probably a key problem is that I don't know when to back off
and give people time.

To be fair, the "devastating blow" argument isn't a devastating blow
to me - if I'm wrong, in principle at least, I'd rather know about it
and correct the error. I want the simple point, not a bunch of little
nudges over a period of time. That just means I have to waste the
effort of reconstructing the point when you could have just told me
from the start - assuming I even notice the hints. But of course it's
not that simple, especially in issues with an emotional or moral tone.
And especially as I can be very sensitive about percieved put-downs.

Is the intent to explain or to ridicule? More unreliable mind-reading.
Bob Badour
2010-05-20 19:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:42:15 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
The dismissal is likewise sophistry. Depending on the person and the
"Oh, so you're just closed-minded, then."
The trouble is that it's a tit-for-tat dismissal.
If you're among friends and reciprocal reactions are accepted, that's
probably fine (nonverbal issues aside). Maybe distracting people from
the original point, though.
That was the point of the original dismissal. Basically, what the person
is saying is: "I don't care about persuasion, and I'm not going to
change my mind." The jab will either goad the person into responding to
the original issue or not. If not, well, you haven't really lost
anything that wasn't already gone.
Post by Stephen Horne
But if you're the lowly autistic who is supposed to know his place, a
tit-for-tat response will be seen as an escalation.
So?
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 20:31:04 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 16:12:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:42:15 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
The dismissal is likewise sophistry. Depending on the person and the
"Oh, so you're just closed-minded, then."
The trouble is that it's a tit-for-tat dismissal.
If you're among friends and reciprocal reactions are accepted, that's
probably fine (nonverbal issues aside). Maybe distracting people from
the original point, though.
That was the point of the original dismissal. Basically, what the person
is saying is: "I don't care about persuasion, and I'm not going to
change my mind." The jab will either goad the person into responding to
the original issue or not. If not, well, you haven't really lost
anything that wasn't already gone.
Assuming that there's only two people around - but a third party
audience might be significant.
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
But if you're the lowly autistic who is supposed to know his place, a
tit-for-tat response will be seen as an escalation.
So?
If you're up for an escalation, that's fine. Just a little
self-interested concern, though... you don't have access to any
weapons of mass destruction, do you? So long as the effects are
strictly short-range I don't mind, but...
Bob Badour
2010-05-20 20:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 16:12:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 14:42:15 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
The dismissal is likewise sophistry. Depending on the person and the
"Oh, so you're just closed-minded, then."
The trouble is that it's a tit-for-tat dismissal.
If you're among friends and reciprocal reactions are accepted, that's
probably fine (nonverbal issues aside). Maybe distracting people from
the original point, though.
That was the point of the original dismissal. Basically, what the person
is saying is: "I don't care about persuasion, and I'm not going to
change my mind." The jab will either goad the person into responding to
the original issue or not. If not, well, you haven't really lost
anything that wasn't already gone.
Assuming that there's only two people around - but a third party
audience might be significant.
Same analysis for the 3rd party. Either the jab will cause the person to
recognize the distraction and reconsider the original point, or not. If
the 3rd party was distracted by the dismissal, then you haven't really
lost anything that wasn't already gone.
Post by Stephen Horne
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
But if you're the lowly autistic who is supposed to know his place, a
tit-for-tat response will be seen as an escalation.
So?
If you're up for an escalation, that's fine. Just a little
self-interested concern, though... you don't have access to any
weapons of mass destruction, do you? So long as the effects are
strictly short-range I don't mind, but...
As I said up front, it depends on the person and the situation. At some
point, I suspect we all learn the skill of "dropping it".
Alice
2010-05-20 22:55:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
The trouble is that it's a tit-for-tat dismissal.
If you're among friends and reciprocal reactions are accepted, that's
probably fine (nonverbal issues aside). Maybe distracting people from
the original point, though.
But if you're the lowly autistic who is supposed to know his place, a
tit-for-tat response will be seen as an escalation.
Not that I have a better answer.
I tend to just ignore it. Issues with that...
1. It's still a kind of tit-for-tat dismissal.
2. It can be seen as passive acceptance, deference, submissiveness.
3. It can be seen as a kind of "I'm not listening" refusal to see
reason.
4. In the friends case, it can be seen as a failure to move on and
join in with the reciprocal-teasing social-bonding exercise.
So, every possible disadvantage that I can think of for yours (still a
tit-for-tat...) plus more.
That last one has me thinking. It shines a new light on some peoples
reactions to my descriptions of autism issues. I think I'm making an
important point for the benefit of others. They think I'm just
whining. Probably a key problem is that I don't know when to back off
and give people time.
To be fair, the "devastating blow" argument isn't a devastating blow
to me - if I'm wrong, in principle at least, I'd rather know about it
and correct the error. I want the simple point, not a bunch of little
nudges over a period of time. That just means I have to waste the
effort of reconstructing the point when you could have just told me
from the start - assuming I even notice the hints. But of course it's
not that simple, especially in issues with an emotional or moral tone.
And especially as I can be very sensitive about percieved put-downs.
Is the intent to explain or to ridicule? More unreliable mind-reading.
please don't take *this* as dismissal, as it's not. it's actually closer to the
"That just means I have to waste the effort of reconstructing the point when you
could have just told me from the start - assuming I even notice the hints."
sentence and i happen to currently be obsessed with t-shirts slogans in combo. i
came up with (slogan) "I don't do subtlety." (i.e., hints) a few days ago after
a friend was trying to drop a hint to another friend, and i had to confess i
didn't get it, either. i would consider it explanation with a humorous twist
(for the t-shirt).

should i make the it?
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 23:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alice
please don't take *this* as dismissal, as it's not. it's actually closer to the
"That just means I have to waste the effort of reconstructing the point when you
could have just told me from the start - assuming I even notice the hints."
sentence and i happen to currently be obsessed with t-shirts slogans in combo. i
came up with (slogan) "I don't do subtlety." (i.e., hints) a few days ago after
a friend was trying to drop a hint to another friend, and i had to confess i
didn't get it, either. i would consider it explanation with a humorous twist
(for the t-shirt).
should i make the it?
I have to say, I quite like the idea of women wearing "I don't do
subtlety" Ts so long as they mean it. There's the whole issue of
chat-up lines, for instance. So lets see what you think...

Errrm - actually, I just thought. The reply might be pretty unsubtle
too. Hmmm...

I'd kinda like to keep my parts where they are, so maybe I should drop
this particular idea.

Nice idea for a slogan though. Very *very* good idea. *Extremely*
good. A truly grea- oh look, what's that over there...

<runs>
Alice
2010-05-20 23:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
I have to say, I quite like the idea of women wearing "I don't do
subtlety" Ts so long as they mean it. There's the whole issue of
chat-up lines, for instance. So lets see what you think...
i suppose that would be an issue. i was, at the time, thinking only in terms of
it's context (me not getting her hint). let me ponder this in TOM (heh, i crack
myself up) realms for a bit.
Post by Stephen Horne
Errrm - actually, I just thought. The reply might be pretty unsubtle
too. Hmmm...
probably :)
Post by Stephen Horne
I'd kinda like to keep my parts where they are, so maybe I should drop
this particular idea.
never be overt with an aggressive woman? some don't kick.
Post by Stephen Horne
Nice idea for a slogan though. Very *very* good idea. *Extremely*
good. A truly grea- oh look, what's that over there...
<runs>
so i can't put the slogan on the back of the shirt, eh? :>
astri
2010-05-21 05:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alice
please don't take *this* as dismissal, as it's not. it's actually
closer to the "That just means I have to waste the effort of
reconstructing the point when you could have just told me from the
start - assuming I even notice the hints." sentence and i happen to
currently be obsessed with t-shirts slogans in combo. i came up with
(slogan) "I don't do subtlety." (i.e., hints) a few days ago after a
friend was trying to drop a hint to another friend, and i had to
confess i didn't get it, either. i would consider it explanation with
a humorous twist (for the t-shirt).
should i make the it?
yes!

-- astri

======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================
Bob Badour
2010-05-20 18:01:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
I've been wondering about autism and sophistry, and accusations
thereof. In particular, is there a perception that autistics are prone
to using deceptive arguments?
I haven't found that. In general, both NTs and autistics are equally
prone to sophistry.
Post by Stephen Horne
The reason I was wondering is that autistic communication is often
seen as pedantic, long-winded, overly technical and complex, overly
formal etc. While "sophistry" refers to any deceptive argument, when
someone says "sophistry" I tend to think of the kind of long-winded
overly-complex argument deliberately constructed to look clever and
convincing, but to be difficult to parse and critically evaluate.
Most sophistries are short and direct but fallacious. They are
rhetorical techniques that are effective in spite of fallacy.
Post by Stephen Horne
It's easy to think such an argument could only fool the gullible or
those who want to believe anyway - but that disregards some fairly
basic psychology. When people have an idea that seems to work, on the
whole they just run with it. Serious examination of the idea usually
only happens when people have some reason for doubt. It's a kind of
economics thing really - we don't have the time to thoroughly analyse
every idea we're exposed to, so we have to take a lot on trust.
But obviously people are aware that deceptiveness is a fact of life,
and react to (generally very unreliably) warning signs.
The problem is that a valid argument can superficially look very much
like that kind of sophistry. In fact another common kind of sophistry
is to make an accusation of sophistry - once the idea is planted, many
people won't bother thinking through an argument for themselves - the
superficial appearance is "confirmation" enough.
When someone observes that an argument is sophistry, it would only be
sophistry if the original argument was in fact valid.
Post by Stephen Horne
Arguing after the fact is likely to be problematic - adding even more
verbiage, even more complexity, and an even greater chance that
readers will be swayed by the superficial appearance rather than the
logic. The obvious pre-emptive strategy is to keep arguments simple,
straightforward, direct and easy to understand. But that may be easier
said than done.
OK - so that's my line of thought, but is there any *real* perception
of autists as being prone to sophistry?
No more than the rest of the population. Although, I recently
encountered a young autistic person who notably claimed to have a
measured IQ a sigma or two below average and a measured verbal IQ a
sigma or two above average who wrote a diatribe comprising a string of
fallacies, which I suppose is unsurprising given the IQ profile.
Post by Stephen Horne
Googling mostly leads to "discussions" of autism issues. But while I
found quite a few accusations, that doesn't mean much. There were
certainly accusations by autistics, as well as of autistics.
So - any thoughts? Personal experiences? References to anything more
formal?
Start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 20:07:21 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 15:01:46 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
The problem is that a valid argument can superficially look very much
like that kind of sophistry. In fact another common kind of sophistry
is to make an accusation of sophistry - once the idea is planted, many
people won't bother thinking through an argument for themselves - the
superficial appearance is "confirmation" enough.
When someone observes that an argument is sophistry, it would only be
sophistry if the original argument was in fact valid.
If the point is valid, how can it be deceptive? Internally valid,
maybe, but if it proves nothing about the issue it's an invalid point
WRT that issue.

For example, in an implied non-sequitur, what you state may be
internally valid - but the conclusion that people are supposed to draw
(by the definition of non-sequitur) does not follow.

From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry

"""
It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it
might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the
audience into agreeing
"""

Extracted from the modern-usage definition of "sophism" - more-or-less
the same kind of sophistry I was referring to.

"""
The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer
or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is
"""

Autistics *are* often accused of being arrogant and conceited. That
accusation seems likely triggered by a perception that we have that
goal. A perception of sophistry could explain those accusations.
That's not evidence, of course, but IMO it's worth exploring.
Bob Badour
2010-05-20 20:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 15:01:46 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
The problem is that a valid argument can superficially look very much
like that kind of sophistry. In fact another common kind of sophistry
is to make an accusation of sophistry - once the idea is planted, many
people won't bother thinking through an argument for themselves - the
superficial appearance is "confirmation" enough.
When someone observes that an argument is sophistry, it would only be
sophistry if the original argument was in fact valid.
If the point is valid, how can it be deceptive?
I misspoke above. It would have to be both valid and sound.
Post by Stephen Horne
Internally valid,
maybe, but if it proves nothing about the issue it's an invalid point
WRT that issue.
When an argument is predicated on a false conditional, the argument may
be perfectly valid but still not sound.
Post by Stephen Horne
For example, in an implied non-sequitur, what you state may be
internally valid - but the conclusion that people are supposed to draw
(by the definition of non-sequitur) does not follow.
Non-sequitur is not valid. Validity requires that the conclusion follows
from the premises.
Post by Stephen Horne
From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry
"""
It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it
might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the
audience into agreeing
"""
Extracted from the modern-usage definition of "sophism" - more-or-less
the same kind of sophistry I was referring to.
"""
The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer
or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is
"""
Autistics *are* often accused of being arrogant and conceited. That
accusation seems likely triggered by a perception that we have that
goal. A perception of sophistry could explain those accusations.
That's not evidence, of course, but IMO it's worth exploring.
As I mentioned recently, a majority of the population either can not or
will not think effectively--at least here in the west. Social
conventions require an environment where this is accomodated if not
outright encouraged.

Arrogance and conceit are social concepts that measure the feelings of
others. If others feel important in your presence, you are not arrogant.
If they feel unimportant, then you are arrogant.

Autistics are ill-equipped to participate in non-verbal communications,
which means we are ill-equipped to make others feel important. As a
result, we are almost arrogant by definition.

Many autistics tend to be too personally self-revealing. When asked a
question, we tend to give the literal answer to the literal question,
for example, without regard for how personally revealing the answer is.
We tend to reveal things that NTs would never reveal about themselves.

That tendency extends to both our strengths and our weaknesses. When we
reveal our weaknesses or unflattering information, we are naive,
gullible, stupid, crazy etc. When we reveal our strengths or flattering
information, we are conceited -- irrespective of how accurate our
self-assessments really are.
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 21:35:44 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 17:51:03 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
For example, in an implied non-sequitur, what you state may be
internally valid - but the conclusion that people are supposed to draw
(by the definition of non-sequitur) does not follow.
Non-sequitur is not valid. Validity requires that the conclusion follows
from the premises.
Let me give an example. I'm struggling to think of an implied
non-sequitur at the moment, so I'll use a different implied fallacy.

Barney: I think you're Wilma is a wonderful wife, Fred.
Fred: I shouldn't have to put up with nagging!

Freds statement is *internally* valid. No-one should have to put up
with nagging. That *isn't* the fallacy.

The fallacy is implied - Fred doesn't *state* that Wilma is a nag, he
only *implies* it. Thus fallaciously disclaiming that Wilma is a
wonderful wife.

Disregarding the possibility, of course, that Wilma has been nagging
Fred recently. Or - has she just been making a valid and important
point, which Fred is unfairly dismissing as "nagging"?

Maybe it is an implied non-sequitur in a sense - if you believe that
Wilma can be a nag *and* a wonderful wife.
Post by Bob Badour
Autistics are ill-equipped to participate in non-verbal communications,
which means we are ill-equipped to make others feel important. As a
result, we are almost arrogant by definition.
Yes about the non-verbals, but importance isn't two-state. Just
because you haven't been brown-nosing, doesn't mean you've been
putting someone down or (by symmetry or otherwise) inflating your own
importance. It just means you haven't been brown-nosing.
Post by Bob Badour
Many autistics tend to be too personally self-revealing. When asked a
question, we tend to give the literal answer to the literal question,
for example, without regard for how personally revealing the answer is.
We tend to reveal things that NTs would never reveal about themselves.
That tendency extends to both our strengths and our weaknesses. When we
reveal our weaknesses or unflattering information, we are naive,
gullible, stupid, crazy etc. When we reveal our strengths or flattering
information, we are conceited -- irrespective of how accurate our
self-assessments really are.
Yes - e.g. the normal process of gradual reciprocal increases in
intimacy in the building of friendships. This isn't the only problem
in that process, but as the social psychology books suggest, excessive
or otherwise badly judged self-disclosure has a similar effect to that
scene where the train hits Hancock.

Peoples reactions are often similar too - "Why would he do that? What
an arsehole!"

Of course, if we imagine a different version of the film where Hancock
had no idea that a train was coming or that any harm would be caused
by it hitting him...
Bob Badour
2010-05-20 21:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 17:51:03 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Autistics are ill-equipped to participate in non-verbal communications,
which means we are ill-equipped to make others feel important. As a
result, we are almost arrogant by definition.
Yes about the non-verbals, but importance isn't two-state. Just
because you haven't been brown-nosing, doesn't mean you've been
putting someone down or (by symmetry or otherwise) inflating your own
importance. It just means you haven't been brown-nosing.
Arrogance isn't about putting others down or about brown-nosing per se.
In some cases, it's about not accomodating others' insecurity. In some
cases, it's about allowing others' their conceits.

I am reminded of Churchill's reply to his valet: "Yes, but I am a Great
Man."
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 22:26:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 18:59:09 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Arrogance isn't about putting others down or about brown-nosing per se.
In some cases, it's about not accomodating others' insecurity. In some
cases, it's about allowing others' their conceits.
I am reminded of Churchill's reply to his valet: "Yes, but I am a Great
Man."
From my reading, it's not about influencing others opinions of
themselves at all, except indirectly, when that it done to achieve the
complementary goal of making yourself look superior. Arrogance is
about feeling or acting superior - strategies such as allowing/denying
others their conceits are just means to that (or some other) end.

And as for Churchill - was he arrogant? Or was he being
self-deprecating by making a show of being arrogant?

The valet *could* have missed the point. And in that, maybe *he* was
the stupid ole' bugger.
Janna
2010-05-20 20:57:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 15:01:46 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
The problem is that a valid argument can superficially look very much
like that kind of sophistry. In fact another common kind of sophistry
is to make an accusation of sophistry - once the idea is planted, many
people won't bother thinking through an argument for themselves - the
superficial appearance is "confirmation" enough.
When someone observes that an argument is sophistry, it would only be
sophistry if the original argument was in fact valid.
If the point is valid, how can it be deceptive? Internally valid,
maybe, but if it proves nothing about the issue it's an invalid point
WRT that issue.
For example, in an implied non-sequitur, what you state may be
internally valid - but the conclusion that people are supposed to draw
(by the definition of non-sequitur) does not follow.
From here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry
"""
It might be crafted to seem logical while actually being wrong, or it
might use difficult words and complicated sentences to intimidate the
audience into agreeing
"""
Extracted from the modern-usage definition of "sophism" - more-or-less
the same kind of sophistry I was referring to.
"""
The goal of a sophism is often to make the audience believe the writer
or speaker to be smarter than he or she actually is
"""
Autistics *are* often accused of being arrogant and conceited. That
accusation seems likely triggered by a perception that we have that
goal. A perception of sophistry could explain those accusations.
That's not evidence, of course, but IMO it's worth exploring.
My fiance is often accused of being arrogant and conceited. It's
unfortunate, because he really does know a lot of information about a
wide variety of subjects, and if you can show him evidence that he is
actually wrong about something, he will accept it (eventually ;) ).
He's actually a rather self-deprecating fellow (he calls it self-
depreciating on purpose), making jokes about himself all the time.
He's asked me why people think that he's being arrogant, and all I can
suggest is that when he speaks, as he often does, in authoritative
tones about things the other people don't know much about, it makes
them feel inferior, so they accuse him of being something he isn't.

That probably doesn't help with this conversation at all, but that
last paragraph of yours reminded me of it. :)

-Janna
Stephen Horne
2010-05-20 22:11:37 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 13:57:10 -0700 (PDT), Janna
Post by Janna
He's asked me why people think that he's being arrogant, and all I can
suggest is that when he speaks, as he often does, in authoritative
tones about things the other people don't know much about, it makes
them feel inferior, so they accuse him of being something he isn't.
A kind of "I feel inferior around you, therefore you are causing it -
deliberately!" assumption.

Makes sense to me.

Obvious pre-emptive strategy...

What's it called when people crouch down to talk to children? There's
a word for that that's often used in a derogatory sense. A kind of
talking-down-to-people thing.

It's odd. Looking up to people and looking down on people implies
judgements. Approximately matched eye levels is less status-oriented,
more friendly. That's *why* people crouch down to talk to children.
But *because* of that common case, and because people don't like to
think they're being treated as children...

"You're looking down on me by deliberately *not* looking down on me!
How dare you!!!"

And don't think that means it's OK to look down (or up) either. Oh no!
And don't *dare* look away! Or askew! Presumably, the only place you
can safely hold a conversation is in a fairground hall of mirrors.
Bob Badour
2010-05-20 22:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Thu, 20 May 2010 13:57:10 -0700 (PDT), Janna
Post by Janna
He's asked me why people think that he's being arrogant, and all I can
suggest is that when he speaks, as he often does, in authoritative
tones about things the other people don't know much about, it makes
them feel inferior, so they accuse him of being something he isn't.
A kind of "I feel inferior around you, therefore you are causing it -
deliberately!" assumption.
Makes sense to me.
Obvious pre-emptive strategy...
What's it called when people crouch down to talk to children? There's
a word for that that's often used in a derogatory sense. A kind of
talking-down-to-people thing.
The word you seek is "patronize".
Rich Ulrich
2010-05-21 22:25:08 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 20 May 2010 08:19:02 +0100, Stephen Horne
Post by Stephen Horne
I've been wondering about autism and sophistry, and accusations
thereof. In particular, is there a perception that autistics are prone
to using deceptive arguments?
The reason I was wondering is that autistic communication is often
seen as pedantic, long-winded, overly technical and complex, overly
formal etc. While "sophistry" refers to any deceptive argument, when
someone says "sophistry" I tend to think of the kind of long-winded
overly-complex argument deliberately constructed to look clever and
convincing, but to be difficult to parse and critically evaluate.
Saying "any deceptive argument" tends to understate the crucial
aspect of "sophistry" -- intentional deceit. Without the deceit,
it is simply "bad logic" which is only "deceptive" as a consequence
of being wrong.

==== from googling
Definitions of sophistry on the Web:

* sophism: a deliberately invalid argument displaying ingenuity in
reasoning in the hope of deceiving someone
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

* Sophism can mean two very different things: In the modern
definition, a sophism is a confusing or illogical argument used for
deceiving someone. In Ancient Greece, the sophists were a group of
teachers of philosophy and rhetoric.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry

* An argument that seems plausible, but is fallacious or
misleading, especially one devised deliberately to be so; The art of
using deceptive speech or writing; Cunning or trickery
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sophistry

* The controversial method of an opponent, distinguished from
one's own by superior insincerity and fooling.
www.johnconnell.co.uk/blog/
===== end of google.

I think your question that is too complex to answer at once.
You wrote, "is there a perception that autistics are prone to using
deceptive arguments?" Perception of what, exactly, by whom?

Instead, try several --

"Are autistics prone to deceptive arguments?" - No. As Temple
Grandin writes, she finds any lying to be *difficult* and also,
generally, not righteous. She does spin one anecdote about
setting up a clever practical joke that did require lying, which she
had to plan out, well in advance. I see righteousness and
self-righteousness as traits that are prominent in autistics.


"Are autistics prone to give arguments that recipients consider
deceptive?" - Yes, especially when the autism is not recognized.

This is not only a matter of "body language" that someone suggested.
I'm thinking of the autistic's complaint, "WHAT did I do wrong?"
and the boss, or whoever, thinks they ought to know. In the direct
opposite of a "meeting of minds", the autistic thinks the boss is
being unfair and illogical, and the boss thinks the autistic makes
excuses (reasons) that are illogical and inadequate.

I think that the non-meeting of minds leads to a corollary that is
also true for other reasons. That is, autistics will tend to
properly discount some "emotional, sociallly-correct bullshitting"
-- Thus, "autistics are prone to consider an NT's argument to be
deceptive" where another NT might not blink, because it *is*
deceptive. But also, the autistic is prone to assign the negative
judgment where it is not deserved because of the autistic's lonely
failure to follow the logic - not sharing the truly 'reasonable'
assumptions, or whatever.
Post by Stephen Horne
It's easy to think such an argument could only fool the gullible or
those who want to believe anyway - but that disregards some fairly
basic psychology. When people have an idea that seems to work, on the
whole they just run with it. Serious examination of the idea usually
only happens when people have some reason for doubt. It's a kind of
economics thing really - we don't have the time to thoroughly analyse
every idea we're exposed to, so we have to take a lot on trust.
Another thing to keep in mind is that most people have not trained
in logic. It can take time and effort to penetrate a deception, even
when you have experience at it. But if you have little experience,
even if you have talent? Or if you have no talent for it? - By the
diagnostic descriptions, autistics can get stuck on particular words
or ideas. That is another problem for understanding "good logical
arguments".
Post by Stephen Horne
But obviously people are aware that deceptiveness is a fact of life,
and react to (generally very unreliably) warning signs.
The problem is that a valid argument can superficially look very much
like that kind of sophistry. In fact another common kind of sophistry
is to make an accusation of sophistry - once the idea is planted, many
people won't bother thinking through an argument for themselves - the
superficial appearance is "confirmation" enough.
Arguing after the fact is likely to be problematic - adding even more
verbiage, even more complexity, and an even greater chance that
readers will be swayed by the superficial appearance rather than the
logic. The obvious pre-emptive strategy is to keep arguments simple,
straightforward, direct and easy to understand. But that may be easier
said than done.
The last quotation from my googling on sophistry,
* The controversial method of an opponent, distinguished from
one's own by superior insincerity and fooling.
Post by Stephen Horne
OK - so that's my line of thought, but is there any *real* perception
of autists as being prone to sophistry?
Perception, Yes, but not labeled by category. Autistics will make
"bad arguments" that will be sincere; but sometimes they will
be so bad that the opponent assumes that they have to be
insincere. That's from my personal experience (see below).
Post by Stephen Horne
Googling mostly leads to "discussions" of autism issues. But while I
found quite a few accusations, that doesn't mean much. There were
certainly accusations by autistics, as well as of autistics.
So - any thoughts? Personal experiences? References to anything more
formal?
Bob B. has exhibited bad logic just lately. Several people pointed
it out. An outsider might consider his posts to be sophistry, but I'm
sure that he is sincere.

I've got my personal experience as an NT. I posted some of it
here before, which Bob B then denigrated as hateful bias or
something, as he is wont to do. This is the experience that
interested me in autism.

My story -- I responded at times to the monologues of an Aspie
in the Internet statistics groups, for a couple of years. He seldom
had a positive response to good logic, by me or by anyone.

I got used to reading his arguments which were sometimes
reasonable "sophistry", on statistical points. What was notable
were a couple of things - a failure to concede to even the best
established opposition; and a propensity towards terrible logic,
on any new topics. But, I concluded eventually, he was sincere.
His *really* poor verbal comprehension seems to be a personal
trait, and not one from autism. It is hard to see that separate
from the stubbornness.
--
Rich Ulrich
Stephen Horne
2010-05-22 00:21:40 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 21 May 2010 18:25:08 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
Saying "any deceptive argument" tends to understate the crucial
aspect of "sophistry" -- intentional deceit. Without the deceit,
it is simply "bad logic" which is only "deceptive" as a consequence
of being wrong.
True - I meant intentional, but didn't say it.
Post by Rich Ulrich
Another thing to keep in mind is that most people have not trained
in logic. It can take time and effort to penetrate a deception, even
when you have experience at it. But if you have little experience,
even if you have talent? Or if you have no talent for it? - By the
diagnostic descriptions, autistics can get stuck on particular words
or ideas. That is another problem for understanding "good logical
arguments".
There is that. I also see a problem where standards for "good logical
arguments" can be unrealistic for some of us. Black-and-white
thinking, but I have a more specific issue in mind.

I have a favorite example taken from a textbook on information theory
and inference algorithms. I probably have it slightly modified here,
but the point is preserved...

You're at work, when you get an automated e-mail from your home
security system - your burglar alarm has been triggered.

At first, you are pretty worried - you're reaching for the phone to
call the police. But then, you here on the radio that there has been a
minor earthquake in your home area.

I think some autistics are prone to a strong insistence on following
the rules of logic from mathematics for these things, also demanding
total adherence to scientific/mathematical rigour. The burglar alarm
went off. Whether there was an earthquake or not has no logical
relevance to the issue of whether or not your house is being burgled.
Calling the police remains essential.

In probability terms, though, making use of Bayes Theorem (though not
strictly doing the math) the earthquake provides a likely explanation
for why the burglar alarm went off. Prior to you knowing about the
earthquake, the odds (prior probability) were that there was a
burglary in progress. Once you *know* about the earthquake, though,
the odds (posterior probability) are in favor of the earthquake having
triggered a false alarm. The earthquake evidence "explains away" the
evidence of the alarm in an am-I-being-burgled probability assessment.

Telling the police "on the face of it, the alarm suggests a burglary
in progress in my home. You have not proven that there isn't a
burglary in progress at my home. The ten thousand other burglar alarms
that are going off in the same area are irrelevant to the point I am
making." won't impress them.
Post by Rich Ulrich
I got used to reading his arguments which were sometimes
reasonable "sophistry", on statistical points. What was notable
were a couple of things - a failure to concede to even the best
established opposition; and a propensity towards terrible logic,
on any new topics. But, I concluded eventually, he was sincere.
His *really* poor verbal comprehension seems to be a personal
trait, and not one from autism. It is hard to see that separate
from the stubbornness.
Self-deception is a basic aspect of human nature. It would be
incredibly naive to suggest that autistics are immune. Either that or
sophistry. And thinking about it... I have a feeling that I may have
claimed in the past that autistics are at least relatively immune.
Whoops.

I suspect we may be good at getting past certain kinds of
self-deceptions, but quite possibly particularly prone to others, at
least on average.

Still - at the moment, I'm more interested in a mistaken perception of
deliberate deceptiveness, though all this is relevant of course.


What you say reminds me of a visit I made to a newsgroup on either
physics or maths, I forget which or why I was there. Anyway, I got
caught up in a thread which appeared to be from a guy with a recurring
obsession about the idea of assigning the "number" infinity this
particular big number because its the biggest number that some current
biggest vs. smallest scale-of-the-universe theory implies could ever
be useful.

Various arguments, such as what about intermediate results in
calculations that are scaled up/down or exponentially or whatever,
about keeping math free from "this universe" and axiomatically as pure
as possible so as to not build circular logic into physics, etc,
resulted in clearly bizarre arguments.

I thought the claim that maths derives from physics because maths is
done within the universe was particularly fun. And his apparent
assertion that the whole of calculus could be derived without ever
having to consider limit cases.

He also couldn't see that if all that math was based on a fallacious
idea, as he claimed, then the physics and cosmology that resulted in
his big number was just as invalid.
Bob Badour
2010-05-22 03:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Fri, 21 May 2010 18:25:08 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
Saying "any deceptive argument" tends to understate the crucial
aspect of "sophistry" -- intentional deceit. Without the deceit,
it is simply "bad logic" which is only "deceptive" as a consequence
of being wrong.
True - I meant intentional, but didn't say it.
I don't know why people think simple factual observations say anything
about intent. It's a really dumb thing to assume for no reason at all.

soph·ist·ry

 /ˈsɒfəstri/ Show Spelled[sof-uh-stree]
–noun,plural-ries.
1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious
method of reasoning.
2. a false argument; sophism.

Nothing about intent there. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nothing about intent
or even declarations of intent.
Stephen Horne
2010-05-22 05:20:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2010 00:29:07 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
True - I meant intentional, but didn't say it.
I don't know why people think simple factual observations say anything
about intent. It's a really dumb thing to assume for no reason at all.
I don't know why people demand impossible standards of perfection from
other peoples words.
Post by Bob Badour
soph·ist·ry
?
?/?s?f?stri/ Show Spelled[sof-uh-stree]
–noun,plural-ries.
1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious
method of reasoning.
2. a false argument; sophism.
Nothing about intent there. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nothing about intent
or even declarations of intent.
That's only one dictionary. Presumably, anyway - you don't say which
one or even actually claim its from a dictionary, so AFAIK maybe you
made it up.

The wikipedia page has already been referenced, and suggests intent at
least can be relevant. There's other dictionaries too, such as this
one...

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=sophistry

"""
a *deliberately* invalid argument displaying ingenuity in reasoning in
the hope of deceiving someone
"""

My asterisk emphasis.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sophistry

"""
1. (countable) An argument that seems plausible, but is fallacious or
misleading, *especially* one devised *deliberately* to be so.
"""

Again, my asterisk emphasis. The "especially" seems to imply that the
"deliberately" is the common case.

And ultimately, real-world usage trumps any dictionary. In my
experience, the implication of intent usually is there.


In natural language there's always some ambiguity in meaning, and
there are responsibilities for both speaker and listener in
communication. That's one reason for the active-listening habits of
repeating in different words and asking questions - feedback error
correction. With author and reader, the author often has a bigger
up-front responsibility since the reader often has less opportunity to
respond (the feedback channel can be severely limited), but that
depends - e.g. usenet *has* easy feedback whereas radio doesn't.

Probability (in a vague, not actually calculated sense) is *always*
relevant to interpreting natural language since absolute certainty
about intended meaning in any non-trivial communication is impossible.
Oh, sure, you can get the 99 point how ever many 9s you want doing
things like more feedback error correction, making sure people are
working from the same dictionary, testing to spot common errors and
training to eliminate them. But this is the real world and there is no
one true definition of English (or any other natural language), the
"resolution" of the expressiveness of natural language is limited, and
another no human can guarantee to never make a mistake.

"Resolution"? Well, there's only so many words, so there's only so
many meanings that can be unambiguously attached to words. The same
for grammar constructs. True, you can get an infinite set of sentences
from finite words and rules, but to use an analogy, you may be able to
bake an infinite set of recipes from flour, sugar, eggs, creme and
fruit preserves - but you can't produce a roast dinner from those
ingredients, and odds much more in favor of recipes specifying 1 or 2
eggs rather than, say, 1.8236298726066546723707536055 eggs.

For an example, look at colour words. If you want to be precise, well,
yes - there's a lot of colour names. But most people would only
recognise a few, and would recognise quite a range of colours as
matching those names. Even if you can resolve the issue where one
persons cyan is another persons green, and yet another persons blue,
perhaps by handing out a bunch of pantone books for reference, well -
there's only so many reference colours anyway. And human colour vision
is only so accurate. And even then we're cheating - we have ambiguity
as e.g. "violet" could refer to the flower rather than the colour.

Context? Well yes, but that's probability again - the combined effect
of multiple pieces of uncertain evidence (the various elements of the
context), all influencing the posterior probabilities of the various
possible interpretations.
Bob Badour
2010-05-22 05:55:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 00:29:07 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
True - I meant intentional, but didn't say it.
I don't know why people think simple factual observations say anything
about intent. It's a really dumb thing to assume for no reason at all.
I don't know why people demand impossible standards of perfection from
other peoples words.
It's not impossible to simply comprehend simple english. I cannot read
minds. You cannot read minds. Very few words actually require anyone to
read minds. Intent is unknowable, boring and generally irrelevant.
Post by Stephen Horne
Post by Bob Badour
soph·ist·ry
?
?/?s?f?stri/ Show Spelled[sof-uh-stree]
–noun,plural-ries.
1. a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious
method of reasoning.
2. a false argument; sophism.
Nothing about intent there. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Zero. Nothing about intent
or even declarations of intent.
That's only one dictionary. Presumably, anyway - you don't say which
one or even actually claim its from a dictionary, so AFAIK maybe you
made it up.
Of course, it's from a dictionary. Made it up? That's paranoid.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sophistry
Post by Stephen Horne
The wikipedia page has already been referenced, and suggests intent at
least can be relevant. There's other dictionaries too, such as this
one...
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=sophistry
Wordnet is a particularly bad dictionary because it's principal goal is
to condense or compress meaning. It's whole purpose is to conflate
things into fewer symbols for computational use.

See "About WordNet" at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/ and pay close
attention to the bits about "synsets" and "computational linguistics".
Stephen Horne
2010-05-22 06:50:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2010 02:55:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
It's not impossible to simply comprehend simple english. I cannot read
minds. You cannot read minds. Very few words actually require anyone to
read minds. Intent is unknowable, boring and generally irrelevant.
And yet it's impossible to comprehend English without making
judgements about intended meaning.

Most certainly you could never have learned to speak without making
judgements about intended meaning. The English language, as spoken
today, is a quite recent version - it certainly isn't innate.
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
That's only one dictionary. Presumably, anyway - you don't say which
one or even actually claim its from a dictionary, so AFAIK maybe you
made it up.
Of course, it's from a dictionary. Made it up? That's paranoid.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sophistry
Not paranoid, and not an accusation - just pointing out that you left
the issue as, well, a matter of interpretation. Why did Bob quote
those words with a dictionary-like formatting? In order to choose an
answer, with possibilities including...

1. Bob is quoting a dictionary to make a factual point.
2. Bob is being deliberately deceptive.

Well, you've left me with no choice but to try to divine your intent,
unreliable though my divination technique may be. And even now - well,
OK, you named your dictionary, but AFAIK you read twenty dictionaries
and found only one that you could quote to "prove" your point. Not a
paranoid accusation, again - just making the point that your intent is
still, pedantically, ambiguous yet very important.

Also you've further proven my point - by not only making an assumption
about my intent, but by making a *false* assumption. You assumed a
paranoid accusation, but no accusation was intended.

Good job we have a mechanism for feedback error correction, eh?
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
The wikipedia page has already been referenced, and suggests intent at
least can be relevant. There's other dictionaries too, such as this
one...
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=sophistry
Wordnet is a particularly bad dictionary because it's principal goal is
to condense or compress meaning. It's whole purpose is to conflate
things into fewer symbols for computational use.
See "About WordNet" at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/ and pay close
attention to the bits about "synsets" and "computational linguistics".
It wasn't the only dictionary I quoted, as you know, and I could quote
more if you *really* want. We could both sit here all day searching
for dictionaries and other references and listing out the ones that
"prove" our respective points.

All we'd really prove in doing so is how obnoxious and stubborn we're
each capable of being. In pure black-and-white terms, my point is
already proven. By my own doctrine of no absolutes, and by the
internal logic of the point itself, it can never *be* absolutely
proven or disproven, nor can I even be absolutely certain of having
communicated it correctly.

In any case it's trivial to bring in the issue of what counts as
reasonable doubt, and then we'll inevitably end up drowning in
pedantic yet subjective distinctions about degree and justification.

C'est la vie.
Bob Badour
2010-05-22 17:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 02:55:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Also you've further proven my point - by not only making an assumption
about my intent, but by making a *false* assumption. You assumed a
paranoid accusation, but no accusation was intended.
With all due respect, it was a paranoid accusation irrespective of intent.
Post by Stephen Horne
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
The wikipedia page has already been referenced, and suggests intent at
least can be relevant. There's other dictionaries too, such as this
one...
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=sophistry
Wordnet is a particularly bad dictionary because it's principal goal is
to condense or compress meaning. It's whole purpose is to conflate
things into fewer symbols for computational use.
See "About WordNet" at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/ and pay close
attention to the bits about "synsets" and "computational linguistics".
It wasn't the only dictionary I quoted
It's the only one I saw you quote that supported your contention.
Stephen Horne
2010-05-22 20:47:48 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2010 14:19:13 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 02:55:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Also you've further proven my point - by not only making an assumption
about my intent, but by making a *false* assumption. You assumed a
paranoid accusation, but no accusation was intended.
With all due respect, it was a paranoid accusation irrespective of intent.
Bob - without you making an assumption of intent, it wasn't an
accusation at all - just a statement of fact.
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
The wikipedia page has already been referenced, and suggests intent at
least can be relevant. There's other dictionaries too, such as this
one...
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=sophistry
Wordnet is a particularly bad dictionary because it's principal goal is
to condense or compress meaning. It's whole purpose is to conflate
things into fewer symbols for computational use.
See "About WordNet" at http://wordnet.princeton.edu/ and pay close
attention to the bits about "synsets" and "computational linguistics".
It wasn't the only dictionary I quoted
It's the only one I saw you quote that supported your contention.
Odd. After posting, I saw a genuine mistake and figured you'd
criticise that. That is, I claimed "in black and white terms, I have
already proven my point" where the best I could justify is "in black
and white terms, I have already proven that you have not proven your
point".

Your assertion here can only be accurate if you're snipping stuff away
without reading it. Not that that's against any kind of rule, of
course.
Bob Badour
2010-05-22 23:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 14:19:13 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 02:55:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Also you've further proven my point - by not only making an assumption
about my intent, but by making a *false* assumption. You assumed a
paranoid accusation, but no accusation was intended.
With all due respect, it was a paranoid accusation irrespective of intent.
Bob - without you making an assumption of intent, it wasn't an
accusation at all - just a statement of fact.
Sorry. Regardless of whatever you might have intended, it was still a
charge of wrongdoing (as far as you knew.)
Stephen Horne
2010-05-22 23:56:53 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2010 20:21:01 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 14:19:13 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 02:55:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Also you've further proven my point - by not only making an assumption
about my intent, but by making a *false* assumption. You assumed a
paranoid accusation, but no accusation was intended.
With all due respect, it was a paranoid accusation irrespective of intent.
Bob - without you making an assumption of intent, it wasn't an
accusation at all - just a statement of fact.
Sorry. Regardless of whatever you might have intended, it was still a
charge of wrongdoing (as far as you knew.)
No.

Here is precisely what I originally said...

"""
That's only one dictionary. Presumably, anyway - you don't say which
one or even actually claim its from a dictionary, so AFAIK maybe you
made it up.
"""

"AFAIK" (ie "As Far As I Know") denotes a statement about what I know,
and what is knowable to me (or rather, what was knowable at that
time). It isn't an accusation - it's merely a statement of a fact
concerning my knowledge.

That you took it as an accusation shows that you were (wrongly)
interpreting my intent.
Bob Badour
2010-05-23 00:00:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 20:21:01 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 14:19:13 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 02:55:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Also you've further proven my point - by not only making an assumption
about my intent, but by making a *false* assumption. You assumed a
paranoid accusation, but no accusation was intended.
With all due respect, it was a paranoid accusation irrespective of intent.
Bob - without you making an assumption of intent, it wasn't an
accusation at all - just a statement of fact.
Sorry. Regardless of whatever you might have intended, it was still a
charge of wrongdoing (as far as you knew.)
<snip>
Post by Stephen Horne
"AFAIK" (ie "As Far As I Know") denotes a statement about what I know,
and what is knowable to me (or rather, what was knowable at that
time).
Exactly, you charged me with wrongdoing (as far as you knew.)
Stephen Horne
2010-05-23 00:43:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2010 21:00:15 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 20:21:01 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 14:19:13 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 02:55:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Also you've further proven my point - by not only making an assumption
about my intent, but by making a *false* assumption. You assumed a
paranoid accusation, but no accusation was intended.
With all due respect, it was a paranoid accusation irrespective of intent.
Bob - without you making an assumption of intent, it wasn't an
accusation at all - just a statement of fact.
Sorry. Regardless of whatever you might have intended, it was still a
charge of wrongdoing (as far as you knew.)
<snip>
Post by Stephen Horne
"AFAIK" (ie "As Far As I Know") denotes a statement about what I know,
and what is knowable to me (or rather, what was knowable at that
time).
Exactly, you charged me with wrongdoing (as far as you knew.)
You are still interpreting intent.

In a thread in which you are denying that "mind-reading" intent is
necessary for communication, you quoted a dictionary. Except that you
didn't say that you were quoting a dictionary, or which one, etc.
*You* made it *necessary* for others to mind-read your intent.

Even for me to simply assume that you were quoting a dictionary was
mind-reading. That was my point. And what's more, I explicitly made
that point, so in scientific terms any other interpretation of my
intent is "unnecessary".

If you're accusing me weasel words, you're wrong. And in any case,
that's blatantly hypocritical given your stubborn insistence on
accusing me of making an unfair accusation against you when you have
no sane basis for doing so.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of this. With your next post on this issue,
you will finally have won - you will have made the point that you are
more stubborn than I am.

Congratulations. Enjoy the victory.
Bob Badour
2010-05-23 01:07:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 21:00:15 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 20:21:01 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 14:19:13 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 02:55:18 -0300, Bob Badour
Also you've further proven my point - by not only making an assumption
about my intent, but by making a *false* assumption. You assumed a
paranoid accusation, but no accusation was intended.
With all due respect, it was a paranoid accusation irrespective of intent.
Bob - without you making an assumption of intent, it wasn't an
accusation at all - just a statement of fact.
Sorry. Regardless of whatever you might have intended, it was still a
charge of wrongdoing (as far as you knew.)
<snip>
Post by Stephen Horne
"AFAIK" (ie "As Far As I Know") denotes a statement about what I know,
and what is knowable to me (or rather, what was knowable at that
time).
Exactly, you charged me with wrongdoing (as far as you knew.)
You are still interpreting intent.
I disagree.
Raving
2010-05-26 00:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Horne
On Sat, 22 May 2010 00:29:07 -0300, Bob Badour
Post by Bob Badour
Post by Stephen Horne
True - I meant intentional, but didn't say it.
I don't know why people think simple factual observations say anything
about intent. It's a really dumb thing to assume for no reason at all.
I don't know why people demand impossible standards of perfection from
other peoples words.
You and Bob have contrasting points of view. ...

Bob emphasizes the 'context free' perspective.
You emphasize aspects which are 'context dependent'.
Rich Ulrich
2010-05-25 04:23:36 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 22 May 2010 01:21:40 +0100, Stephen Horne
Post by Stephen Horne
On Fri, 21 May 2010 18:25:08 -0400, Rich Ulrich
[snip - about 'intentional' and earthquake burglar-alarm example]

me >>
Post by Stephen Horne
Post by Rich Ulrich
I got used to reading his arguments which were sometimes
reasonable "sophistry", on statistical points. What was notable
were a couple of things - a failure to concede to even the best
established opposition; and a propensity towards terrible logic,
on any new topics. But, I concluded eventually, he was sincere.
His *really* poor verbal comprehension seems to be a personal
trait, and not one from autism. It is hard to see that separate
from the stubbornness.
sh>
Post by Stephen Horne
Self-deception is a basic aspect of human nature. It would be
incredibly naive to suggest that autistics are immune. Either that or
sophistry. And thinking about it... I have a feeling that I may have
claimed in the past that autistics are at least relatively immune.
Whoops.
Well - some NTs may give you a sophistical argumet as part of playing
games or teasing. I believe that autistics are less likely to "be
deceptive" and play games that way. Also, I agree that no one
is immune to self-deception.
Post by Stephen Horne
I suspect we may be good at getting past certain kinds of
self-deceptions, but quite possibly particularly prone to others, at
least on average.
Still - at the moment, I'm more interested in a mistaken perception of
deliberate deceptiveness, though all this is relevant of course.
[snip, rest]

Your next-to-last paragraph suggests some answer to the last one.

Consider that NTs share some common self-deceptions, or are
conditioned to accept them. The AS is left out of step or out of
synch when "getting past certain kinds of self-deceptions"; and
perhaps even more out of synch when the other phrase applies,
"particularly prone to others."

So the NT is more apt to miss the point of the arguments by an
autistic, than arguments by another NT. Whether NT or autistic,
someone who doesn't "get" an argument may eventually consider
whether it is sophisitical.

What makes an argument seem like sophistry? - being particularly
flawed or weak; being promoted repetitively, despite refutation
(and failure to meet the refutation).

And presumably it is not simple deception if the argument is
widely shared as serious. I guess this must be somewhat like
"psychosis" under DSM diagnostic guidelines. Delusions that are
shared by a wide religious or political group are not considered
psychotic. Similarly for deceptive sophistry, "followers" are not
knowingly spreading deception.

My experience tells me that NTs who are challenged for giving
an unusually weak argument, or any argument that they cannot
sufficiently defend, will give up a point, or temporize, or back out
gracefully -- much more than an autistic.
- "You're probably right."
- "I'll think about that."
- "You're better with words than I am/ You've got the
better argument right now/ so I can't argue with you,
but I still think I'm right."

Bob B. has been giving you some really poor arguments -
such as, arbitrary selection of a dictionary definition, which is
contrary to other dictionaries and everyone else's posted
testimony. And there was another thread a week ago, where
he was sophist (by the definition he likes) in about the same way.
(Assuming I am still kill-filed by him, he won't see this note unless
someone quotes it. I figure that he never saw my 4 googled
definitions of sophistry. Would it help him to see this post?)

On various groups, continued sophistry coming out of the blue
is labeled "trolling". In my previous group experience, it
seemed that if maybe 3 different people accused our own Aspie-
participant of trolling, in one thread, *then* he would quit that
line. I don't remember that he ever admitted being wrong owing
to pressure.

For me, there has been a certain benefit of having learned about
the autistic spectrum -- I can better sympathize with people
who are accused of trolling, or who persist in (what seems to
me to be) impossibly stupid arguments. I can grant them the
assumption of being "sincere" and I can hold off, for a lot longer,
before I conclude that there is some motive that has to be evil or
base because the person seems too smart to be sincere at it.
--
Rich Ulrich
m***@gmail.com
2013-08-21 12:33:32 UTC
Permalink
I came here to say that Autistic people like myself are, if anything, immune to sophistry. If there is a fallacy somewhere in an argument, I cannot overlook it, intentionally or otherwise.

But, based on how long the average reply in this thread is, and the excessive use of referencing other people's posts, I now think that Autistics revel in sophistry. Sophistry relies on misdirection much like a magician relies on a complex performance of colours, movement and distractors. It also relies on assumptions of truth, also used by magicians, which is best achieved by referencing and accepting something someone else said as true and building on it.

So perhaps because we can see through many fallacious arguments and logical traps, it makes us good trap builders?

If that is the case, then I think it's fair say that people who are good at building traps will build them more frequently than those who aren't.

But perhaps the reverse is true.... I can imagine a similar argument like "people who are easily misdirected and are misdirected frequently become experts in misdirection and thus are capable of creating complex traps - intentionally or not."

But if we take the magician analogy more literally, then good magicians can often detect other magicians tricks, even if they have never seen them before. That would suggest it's autistics and not NTs who make the best logical fallacy traps.

Either way - my post is long, convoluted, and it suggests two equally plausible answers (only one of which can be true), and I am autistic (26 y/o with Semantic Pragmatic Disorder).

So I think my post adds to the likely hood that we're all full of carefully worded bullshit and we know it ;) hahahah
Legal Alien
2013-08-21 14:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
So perhaps because we can see through many fallacious arguments and logical traps, it makes us good trap builders
Nope we are n`t trap builders leave that to NT`s
We`re more than than capable of revealing traps ,.. like the Assanges
and Snowdens of this messed up NT world

Just my 2 cents of NSA meta data
Autindividual
2013-08-22 10:21:14 UTC
Permalink
It's a lot simpler, and also more profound than that.
Being non hostile Aliens in an extremely hostile Alien world, we Must
carefully and quickly hone our survival skills at as early an age as
possible, so we can 'infiltrate' the NT world in order to prevent or at
very least minimize being Attacked by it.

Such successful infiltration Requires accurate mimicry on our part, which
means that accurate Observation is Mandatory. The knowledge we gain is
used primarily for survival, not for frivolously playing silly games with
sophistry...even though we're quite capable of that. If a particular NT
situation in which we're involved requires sophistry, then we do it, and
the motivation is merely so we're not 'discovered', and picked-on like we
would be otherwise if we were to allow the NT to see us as we truly are.

I've been doing that since I learned to talk, and I've observed so very
much, and learned so very much while doing so, applying what I've learned
on a daily basis in order to 'get along' i.e. not get into too much
trouble with those (NT) who aren't interested in getting along unless
you're like them i.e. a conformist...and while it's long since become
second nature to me to understand *that* the NT are as they are, and
*how* they are, it still eludes me to this very day as to *why* they are
that way. That's why I'll always need my 'outpost', my own 'world' to
retreat to where, even though it's very lonely, there is understanding,
and sanity. And I still dare to keep hoping that one day, I may yet be
able to invite a very special person to my 'outpost', someone who
actually understands, besides myself...I even have a prospect for that,
he's been a total sweetheart and even told me that what he likes best
about me is that I'm not like everyone else - he actually likes my
uniqueness, my being different! Wouldn't that make you too, just 'melt'
if someone had told you that after a lifetime of rejection, scorn, and
persecution for nothing more than just being different from the herd? It
even inspired me to write a song about it on my first album "Opening A
Channel", it's called "Be Who You Are"...and that's ultimately what it's
all about...the meaning of all the struggle!
m***@gmail.com
2013-08-22 11:35:44 UTC
Permalink
We are not non-hostile aliens, nor living in an alien world.
While I agree that we are typically less confrontational, you forget that confrontational people typically aren't NT. This is a problem with seeing the world as "us and them". The 'them' can be just as good as the 'us'. Furthermore, your ownership of this world is no less than an NT's.

Everything you mention in the post - seeking acceptance, learning to survive in the group, mimicry of group norms, fear of being "discovered" as different, having a quiet place to call your own where you can truely be yourself -- all these things NT people go through too, particularly in their young adult years.
NT people are just as lonely and as confused about who they are as you. And you know that - since your song is about that and it's not only aimed at an Autistic audience.

What i'm getting at is - you have the gift of being marginally different than the rest of humanity. But you're not that different. A dog couldn't tell you from a NT. I doubt another primate could even distinguish different ways in which humans think so long as you are high-functioning.
Point is that if you stress the negative aspects of the difference, and try to make it as big a deal as possible by stressing the us-and-them mentality, then you'll end up like Legal Alien - depressing, paranoid, and feeling useless.. like you're trapped in a world of some evil NT's creation.
Truth is the NSA employ a lot of Autistic people - certainly more than the average. Same is true for all science (which I work in), and security (what I used to work in) professions. We make great puzzle solvers! The world needs us! Life is your friend not your enemy :)
Autindividual
2013-08-24 13:20:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by m***@gmail.com
We are not non-hostile aliens, nor living in an alien world.
I was referring to it being effectively that way, and certainly having to
put up with it all as if it were such. Besides, I'm not the only one to
have that impression, those who have given me such a hard time for so
long clearly indicate it too.
Post by m***@gmail.com
While I agree that we are typically less confrontational, you forget
that confrontational people typically aren't NT.
Confrontational and hostile are not necessarily the same thing - and I'm
quite confrontational wherever it's warranted, such as in regards to
Injustice for example.
Post by m***@gmail.com
This is a problem
with seeing the world as "us and them". The 'them' can be just as good
as the 'us'. Furthermore, your ownership of this world is no less than
an NT's.
Can be, sure, but usually not, and unfortunately the majority of 'they'
have made it such, such as by always using the term 'we', as in 'we' this
and 'we' that when trying, in vain of course ;) to Corece those who are
different to give up being themselves and be more like 'them'...something
I've had to put up with literally for my entire existence.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Everything you mention in the post - seeking acceptance, learning to
survive in the group, mimicry of group norms, fear of being
"discovered" as different, having a quiet place to call your own where
you can truely be yourself -- all these things NT people go through
too, particularly in their young adult years. NT people are just as
lonely and as confused about who they are as you. And you know that -
since your song is about that and it's not only aimed at an Autistic
audience.
Of course, and I also recognize Manipulation and Polarization such as
'autistic' vs 'neurotypical'...and I've maintained for the longest time,
and still do of course, that in essence, practically ALL of this hype is
ALL about Corecing Conformity - it's practically ALL based entirely on
Behavior i.e. if you behave like the rest of the Stupid Herd, according
to the Established Standards the Manipulators have *set* for 'normal'
behavior (people are easier to CONTROL when they all behave alike - see
Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World"), such as by making eye contact, or
jumping into the lake because 'everyone' else is doing it, it's the
'fashion', etc., that's considered 'NT', but if you Dare to THINK for
yourself and decide not to be like 'everyone' else, then you're not
'normal', you're not 'right', you're 'ill', 'diseased', 'disordered', and
'need' to be 'cured' or at very least 'treated' to 'help' you to become
more 'normal' i.e. like the Stupid Herd. THAT's what it's Really
about...Depersonalization, because Every person is an Individual, and
Unique unto themselves no matter what Label one might stick on them, even
if they're Stupid enough to Denounce and Renounce their own
Individuality, for ANY reason, even if it's to appear 'normal' - so as
far as I'm concerned, and there is plenty of evidence to back it up,
'autistic' and 'neurotypical' are Labels for two different forms of
Behavior, 'neurotypical' being the label for being like 'everyone' else,
and 'autistic' Intended to somehow be regarded as shameful or otherwise
negative, for being Outstandingly Unique...what I like to refer to as
'NE' NeuroExceptional. And when it's all distilled down to the simplest
form, based on prefix and suffix meanings "autism" literally means Self-
Being, or being oneself, what everyone should be doing anyway, as
reflected in my song "Be Who You Are".
Post by m***@gmail.com
What i'm getting at is - you have the gift of being marginally
different than the rest of humanity. But you're not that different.
Different enough, but then, considering the miserable state of
'humanity', I feel Very Blessed to be that different ;)
Post by m***@gmail.com
A
dog couldn't tell you from a NT. I doubt another primate could even
distinguish different ways in which humans think so long as you are
high-functioning.
Other i.e. nonhuman creatures can easily tell, particularly since
autistic individuals do tend to hold onto and actively practice, rather
then foolishly renounce the use of telepathy, which those other creatures
also use extensively - I've been doing it all my life, even regularly
making eye contact with nonhuman creatures, mostly because unlike the
vast majority of humans, the nonhumans are Honest rather than Deceitful
and Wicked.
Post by m***@gmail.com
Point is that if you stress the negative aspects of
the difference, and try to make it as big a deal as possible by
stressing the us-and-them mentality, then you'll end up like Legal
Alien - depressing, paranoid, and feeling useless..
Feeling useless is common, particularly because I Know that I'm Not, but
am so often MIStreated that way, for an entire lifetime so far...and it
HURTS, particularly since there's NO Valid reason for it - and just being
different is NOT a Valid reason! If it was the same situation but with
some parameter changed, such as skin color, for instance, and being
considered 'different' on that basis, That would be condemned, perhaps
even by legality, as "discrimination", and maybe even punished, but when
it's about Individuality, that gets Totally overlooked. In a word,
INJUSTICE.
I wrote a tune that covers that also, the title is "Stranded", the first
song on my second album.
Post by m***@gmail.com
like you're
trapped in a world of some evil NT's creation.
It's more than a just a simile, it's Very Painfully Real!
Post by m***@gmail.com
Truth is the NSA employ
a lot of Autistic people - certainly more than the average.
That's so Sad, and I'm truly very sorry to hear that. I would NEVER aid
and abet an Evil force's NEW WORLD ORDER, but rather Fight it instead
because I'm into Freedom and Liberty, not Tyranny! Helping to SPY on
people and Violate their Rights is Nothing to be anything but Totally
Ashamed of, and Outraged at!
Post by m***@gmail.com
Same is
true for all science (which I work in), and security (what I used to
work in) professions. We make great puzzle solvers! The world needs
us!
I was an electroacoustics engineer, designer, and inventor for 11 years
working with loudspeakers - solving problems is one of my favorite things
to do ;) And being hypersensitive, particularly in the audio environment,
that gave me an opportunity to take better control of that condition. I'm
still into sound, only now I'm writing original music, and performing it
with a band is an even more awesome experience because there's also a
wonderful, Very sensual side to hypersensitivity, especially when
combined with synesthesia, such as the tactile environment, where there's
also extreme hypersensitivity, and making Music really gets into it soooo
Awesomely!
Post by m***@gmail.com
Life is your friend not your enemy :)
Perhaps, but those who work at making it Miserable, such as for no reason
other than being different ARE the Enemy!

Loading...