Discussion:
Need help - what does this mean?
(too old to reply)
wilson
2004-07-03 00:15:59 UTC
Permalink
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.

Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.

Somebody please explain to me what this means?

He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
Robin May
2004-07-03 00:52:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
Possibly he means you talk at him and sort of give him lectures on the
things you're interested in rather than respond to what he says and
what he wants to talk about?
--
message by Robin May-Silk and his close friend, Robert Kilroy-Kotton
"GIVE IN! IT'S TIME TO GO!" - The NHS offers a high standard of care.

Would you take the office of relief?:
http://robinmay.fotopic.net/p4600200.html
Nick Argall
2004-07-03 01:37:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robin May
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
Possibly he means you talk at him and sort of give him lectures on the
things you're interested in rather than respond to what he says and
what he wants to talk about?
Sounds likely. Body language could also be a factor. If you look at the
middle of someone's forehead, it's a reasonably effective way to fake eye
contact, and can increase the perception of 'being present'. Another thing
to do is to check on your body language every so often. Crossing your arms
or legs can send an 'I'm not listening' signal that NTs will respond to,
even if they're not conscious of why they think you're not listening.



nick
Terry Jones
2004-07-03 12:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Argall
Post by Robin May
Possibly he means you talk at him and sort of give him lectures on the
things you're interested in rather than respond to what he says and
what he wants to talk about?
Sounds likely. Body language could also be a factor. If you look at the
middle of someone's forehead, it's a reasonably effective way to fake eye
contact, and can increase the perception of 'being present'. Another thing
to do is to check on your body language every so often. Crossing your arms
or legs can send an 'I'm not listening' signal that NTs will respond to,
even if they're not conscious of why they think you're not listening.
Plus, he may be expecting you to read *his* signals - "I'm losing
interest in this", "I want to say something here" - that sort of
thing.

Terry
The autist formerly known as
2004-07-04 10:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Sounds like a typical autistic thing that does, are you like that ?

I know lots of us that are.
--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
Post by Robin May
Possibly he means you talk at him and sort of give him lectures on the
things you're interested in rather than respond to what he says and
what he wants to talk about?
--
message by Robin May-Silk and his close friend, Robert Kilroy-Kotton
"GIVE IN! IT'S TIME TO GO!" - The NHS offers a high standard of care.
http://robinmay.fotopic.net/p4600200.html
Rowe Rickenbacker
2004-07-03 01:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Does it refer to the amount of eye contact you give? Do you often look
towards the wall or talk towards a different direction than him?
Post by wilson
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
Usually people expect you to both look at them (generally the
lower-middle face area) at least some of the time you talk to them,
although I tend to rest against something and look at the ground like
I'm trying to remember what it was I was trying to say :)

Rowe
--
AS! AA? i+ c+++ p+ n s+:- m P+ p++ M-- a18 t+ h-- f-- d- S++ e r-
--
You can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
You can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
Telnet over, it's a simple hack.
Port one-nineteen is where it's at.
and you can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
wilson
2004-07-03 06:17:30 UTC
Permalink
It's over the phone/modem as well.

He says I don't treat him like he has emotions, I don't acknowledge
his emotions.

I have trouble knowing what he means. We talk about data and factual
things. Usually I didn't perceive any emotional input to acknowledge.

It's frustrating for both of us.
Gareeth
2004-07-03 07:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by wilson
It's over the phone/modem as well.
He says I don't treat him like he has emotions, I don't acknowledge
his emotions.
I have trouble knowing what he means. We talk about data and factual
things. Usually I didn't perceive any emotional input to acknowledge.
It's frustrating for both of us.
Maybe you could just tell him he has to be more explicit if he wants you to
know that there is emotional content there. Not much point in you both being
frustrated. If he was explicit do you feel able to supportive?

Gareeth
Terry Jones
2004-07-03 12:47:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by wilson
It's over the phone/modem as well.
He says I don't treat him like he has emotions, I don't acknowledge
his emotions.
I have trouble knowing what he means. We talk about data and factual
things. *Usually I didn't perceive any emotional input to acknowledge*.
[Emphasis added]

Perhaps that's part of the problem then - If he's upset or stressed
out he may want / need to talk about this *rather* than purely data
and factual things - likewise if he's particularly enthused about
something.

Or if stressed / overloaded, he may not really want / be able to
concentrate on the usual factual content.

You see this even here in what is nominally a topic [autism] based
group, people will "vent" or describe some good experience. Or say
that they can't cope with posts in general, or some specific thread
ATM.

If it's anything like that than perhaps you could explain that he
needs to be *explicit* rather than expecting you to read subtle
"signals". To *tell* you that he's upset about something in his life
or whatever. (Though there's still the problem of responding in an
"appropriate" way to content which is largely emotion based.)

The other possibility (which sometimes happens to me), is that I don't
recognise people's emotions because - to me - they are *invalid*. I'm
not even expecting / "looking out for" such an emotional response in
that situation.

For example, someone may have some expectation of me which is
unrealistic / not in my "nature", and then get angry with *me* for not
conforming to an expectation which they *made up themselves*.

Terry
The autist formerly known as
2004-07-04 10:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Do other people have emotions then ? I thought I was the only one :)

Ask him what he would expect from a blind person, and explain the analogy.
--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
Post by wilson
It's over the phone/modem as well.
He says I don't treat him like he has emotions, I don't acknowledge
his emotions.
I have trouble knowing what he means. We talk about data and factual
things. Usually I didn't perceive any emotional input to acknowledge.
It's frustrating for both of us.
Chakolate
2004-07-03 03:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
When people who are good at conversing converse, there's a lot of listening
going on. Is it that you don't really tune in to him?

Chakolate
--
Nothing is so unbelievable that oratory can't make it believable.
--Cicero
Sojourner
2004-07-03 08:56:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
You aren't giving people interaction. You are talking to them like you
would a wall, not wanting or expecting them to say anything or, if they
DO say anything, you do not respond in anyway to what they say....as if
they said nothing.

In otherwords, a monologue.

Yes, it gets on peoples nerves.

Sojo
Diana Burgess
2004-07-03 10:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sojourner
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
You aren't giving people interaction. You are talking to them like you
would a wall, not wanting or expecting them to say anything or, if they
DO say anything, you do not respond in anyway to what they say....as if
they said nothing.
In otherwords, a monologue.
Yes, it gets on peoples nerves.
Sojo
I can tell you that this is what most people have difficulty with my
daughter about. She just does not acknowledge that she has understood or
heard what you said. I now know that she has but still find it frustrating
when I don't know if she understood what I said. That is when we get into
really nasty arguments as the normal thing to do in those situations to to
repeat yourself to get that acknowledgement. Especially if it is important.
She has an absolute hatred of people repeating themselves.
I have since talked to her about this and she is going to try to acknowledge
more and is succeeding. And to elaborate when she is speaking. But we have
now figured the reason for that. She has most conversations in her head
first or when she is the"body asleep/mind awake" state. So when she comes to
have the "actual" conversation it is the second time for her so she "skips"
the (to her) unimportant parts of the conversation leaving us bewildered as
to what she is saying. And of course then to ask her to REPEAT it is very
aggravating to her. Now that we(us and her) have realized this she is
finding conversation much easier to enter and enjoy. She is also talking to
US as if it is for the first time.The thought process is happening at the
same time as the conversation if that makes sense. So that when the
conversation doesn't go according the one she had "by herself" she is not
disappointed and can cope with it going in another direction....as long as
it doesn't happen too quick for her.
I can tell you that once we had this all figured out I was able to cope
better too. Maybe, if this is the same for you, your friend may need to know
this.
Hope this helps
Diana in Aus




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Rowe Rickenbacker
2004-07-03 11:23:10 UTC
Permalink
when she comes to have the "actual" conversation it is the second
time for her so she "skips" the (to her) unimportant parts of the
conversation leaving us bewildered as to what she is saying. And of
course then to ask her to REPEAT it is very aggravating to her. Now
that we(us and her) have realized this she is finding conversation
much easier to enter and enjoy. She is also talking to US as if it is
for the first time.The thought process is happening at the same time
as the conversation if that makes sense. So that when the
conversation doesn't go according the one she had "by herself" she is
not disappointed and can cope with it going in another direction...
I used to be similar... and to a certain extent still am since I do work
the conversation out to work out the most likely answers and outcomes
etc, so really I am not recieving a general answer as much as one of a
small selection I have concluded in my head.

Anyway... when I don't do this, or at least when I have a conversation
in "real time" I often have the most annoying stutter, since I can't
really keep up, and I start leaving things out and everyone gets
confused, but if I try to focus I can keep it all in. Can't really get
rid of the stutter though, especially in emotional or complicated things
that I don't fully understand.

People are very patient, though - and when I had a recent job interview
for a warehouse job in a local supermarket, the person interviewing me
was very understanding and supportive since she saw that I was trying to
say things that meant a lot to me, but that there was a bit of a barrier
in the way. That is a really fantastic thing when you have problems
because of Autism, since you actually have a problem that people can
*see* when they talk to you, so you can hide all of the other problems
behind that and so really they just think I'm a bit shy with a stutter.

Rowe
--
AS! AA? i+ c+++ p+ n s+:- m P+ p++ M-- a18 t+ h-- f-- d- S++ e r-
--
You can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
You can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
Telnet over, it's a simple hack.
Port one-nineteen is where it's at.
and you can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
Diana Burgess
2004-07-03 13:43:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
when she comes to have the "actual" conversation it is the second
time for her so she "skips" the (to her) unimportant parts of the
conversation leaving us bewildered as to what she is saying. And of
course then to ask her to REPEAT it is very aggravating to her. Now
that we(us and her) have realized this she is finding conversation
much easier to enter and enjoy. She is also talking to US as if it is
for the first time.The thought process is happening at the same time
as the conversation if that makes sense. So that when the
conversation doesn't go according the one she had "by herself" she is
not disappointed and can cope with it going in another direction...
I used to be similar... and to a certain extent still am since I do work
the conversation out to work out the most likely answers and outcomes
etc, so really I am not recieving a general answer as much as one of a
small selection I have concluded in my head.
Anyway... when I don't do this, or at least when I have a conversation
in "real time" I often have the most annoying stutter, since I can't
really keep up, and I start leaving things out and everyone gets
confused, but if I try to focus I can keep it all in. Can't really get
rid of the stutter though, especially in emotional or complicated things
that I don't fully understand.
My daughter doesn't stutter. She has no speech impediment but maybe because
she does tend to "sit out" of long and detailed conversation. Once she has
lost the plot( of the conversation that is<G>) she tends to not get invovled
till it comes around to something she can grab onto and interact about.
The problem as I see it with already preconcieved ideas of what the response
is going to be is that does she hear the "other" response or not.I will have
to ask when I see her next. Its the weekend and she is usually out till
Sunday night( oh to be young again).
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
People are very patient, though - and when I had a recent job interview
for a warehouse job in a local supermarket, the person interviewing me
was very understanding and supportive since she saw that I was trying to
say things that meant a lot to me, but that there was a bit of a barrier
in the way. That is a really fantastic thing when you have problems
because of Autism, since you actually have a problem that people can
*see* when they talk to you, so you can hide all of the other problems
behind that and so really they just think I'm a bit shy with a stutter.
Rowe
I too stutter but not all the time. Before my husband and I married we had a
terrible fight one night(don't ask me what it was about.That is truly lost
in the mists of time.....) suddenly I couldnt speak a word. Not one word. I
went to the doctor and found out that my tracheal valve had stuck open and
that is why I couldn't speak.I was on sedatives for a week or two to reduce
my "need" to communicate and let it rest. After a few days speech came back
but I stuttered for about two weeks after.
Now if I get over emotional(thank goodness those days are few and far
between now) it happens again. I can feel it happen. My tongue drops to the
floor of my mouth and will not budge. When it happens I no longer try to
speak, I just rest it and speech comes back in a few hours and now only very
occassionally do I stutter after it.
But I learned a lot about what it is like to stutter in that two weeks. I
HATED it. People kept trying to preemt what I was saying which just made it
worse as I would have to try to say "no" when they got it wrong. No has to
be the hardest word to say if you stutter. I also found some to be cruel and
try to make your stutter worse just so they got a laugh.
I knew a boy once who had a terrible stutter when he had to speak to anyone
outside his family. Except me. This was before I had any stutter problems
myself and only ,I feel, because I let him finish his own sentence when I
spoke to him.He then didn't stutter anymore when he spoke to me.
BTW Did you know that you don't stutter if you whisper? I find this very
strange.But helpful in letting my family know that I am having "one of
those" moments.

Another point on stuttering. My primary school pricipal had a terrible time
with speech problems. But he was a brilliant man. When I was in grade 2 he
caught my teacher forcing me to write with my right hand and had made me sit
on my left( I am lefthanded in case you couldn't guess;))
He told her to never do it again. He then spent a few weeks with me after
school teaching me to write without the obvious lefthand backward writing
technique(of which I am very grateful to him for to this day as many who
have known me for years are stunned when they suddenly realize I am left
handed).He told me that he was naturally left handed but that when he was
young he had been forced to learn to use his right hand. He was convinced
that is what caused his stutter. He was thinking at normal rate but for some
reason couldn't get the words to come out at the same speed that he was
thinking them. The forced use of his right hand had somehow casued his brian
to slow this function down.
I saw on a doco once that when we are born our brain has many paths that the
electronic messages pass through to get our body to "do" the thing we want
it to do. Like when you watch a baby trying to reach out and grab a toy. At
first they miss all the time and then slowly they get closer and closer till
they can actually grab it. During this process the brain is sending these
electronic messages down these paths till it finds the right one to do the
job. Then all the other paths die off till only the one needed to perform
that task is left. By focing my principal to change the "learned " path of
his left hand brain function he lost the ability to speak as fast as he
thought.
How sad that we were ever so backward as a people in thinking that all
people should act the same.
Diana


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Rowe Rickenbacker
2004-07-03 16:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Diana Burgess
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
when she comes to have the "actual" conversation it is the second
time for her so she "skips" the (to her) unimportant parts of
the conversation leaving us bewildered as to what she is saying.
And of course then to ask her to REPEAT it is very aggravating to
her. Now that we(us and her) have realized this she is finding
conversation much easier to enter and enjoy. She is also talking
to US as if it is for the first time.The thought process is
happening at the same time as the conversation if that makes
sense. So that when the conversation doesn't go according the one
she had "by herself" she is not disappointed and can cope with it
going in another direction...
I used to be similar... and to a certain extent still am since I do
work the conversation out to work out the most likely answers and
outcomes etc, so really I am not recieving a general answer as much
as one of a small selection I have concluded in my head.
Anyway... when I don't do this, or at least when I have a
conversation in "real time" I often have the most annoying stutter,
since I can't really keep up, and I start leaving things out and
everyone gets confused, but if I try to focus I can keep it all in.
Can't really get rid of the stutter though, especially in emotional
or complicated things that I don't fully understand.
My daughter doesn't stutter. She has no speech impediment but maybe
because she does tend to "sit out" of long and detailed conversation.
Once she has lost the plot( of the conversation that is<G>) she tends
to not get invovled till it comes around to something she can grab
onto and interact about. The problem as I see it with already
preconcieved ideas of what the response is going to be is that does
she hear the "other" response or not.
I work out the most likely responses, and then while talking, I try to
work out the likelyhood that the response I'm being told is one of the
ones I've already worked out, because if I have already worked out that
response then I have already worked out some consequences and things so
I can continue the conversation as if I had worked all that stuff out on
the spot, when I had actually done it plenty of time before.

If I get a different response, then I panic a bit, but I try to recover.
Generally I stutter A LOT at this point, since my brain is catching up
to the point I would have been at had the answer been one of my
responses, so my brain's going really fast and my mouth has to keep
going so it doesn't look strange that I'm standing there doing not very
much, and everything's quite hectic for a moment, although it doesn't
appear that way on the outside - it just appears that I am having
trouble forming my sentences or something, which may be true, but only
because I'm "multi-processing" and giving too much "brain time" to
catching up rather than talking (since I can't talk unless I have
something to say, and I don't have something to say until I've worked
all the previous stuff out)

And, on top of all that, I've got to try and work out if I've gone too
far, or not far enough, and whether what I'm saying is appropriate to
the subject - otherwise I'll have to rethink it again with slightly
different premises. It may be that the conversation has actually ended
already! Maybe they meant something else and the whole thing has turned
into puns or inuendos and I've got to completely go through everything
again in my head to find other meanings that someone might construe.

By the time this whole thing's gone on - I need a sit down, or maybe
even more rest. I often feel breathless after a particularly stressful
conversation like that.
Post by Diana Burgess
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
People are very patient, though - and when I had a recent job
interview for a warehouse job in a local supermarket, the person
interviewing me was very understanding and supportive since she saw
that I was trying to say things that meant a lot to me, but that
there was a bit of a barrier in the way. That is a really fantastic
thing when you have problems because of Autism, since you actually
have a problem that people can *see* when they talk to you, so you
can hide all of the other problems behind that and so really they
just think I'm a bit shy with a stutter.
I too stutter but not all the time. Before my husband and I married
we had a terrible fight one night(don't ask me what it was about.That
is truly lost in the mists of time.....) suddenly I couldnt speak a
word. Not one word. I went to the doctor and found out that my
tracheal valve had stuck open and that is why I couldn't speak.I was
on sedatives for a week or two to reduce my "need" to communicate and
let it rest. After a few days speech came back but I stuttered for
about two weeks after.
That sounds awful. Is there no treatment for it?
Post by Diana Burgess
He told me that he was naturally left handed but that when he was
young he had been forced to learn to use his right hand. He was
convinced that is what caused his stutter. He was thinking at normal
rate but for some reason couldn't get the words to come out at the
same speed that he was thinking them. The forced use of his right
hand had somehow casued his brian to slow this function down.
I wrote with my left hand until I was forced to use my left... and this
is only, what, 10-12 years ago. My Mum taught me to read when the school
couldn't, and then they went ahead and said that they couldn't teach me
to write unless I used the same hand as the teacher... or some bizarre
reason like that. I can't even remember where the school is or if it's
still open... we've moved a couple of times since.

Damn... now I'm going to have this thought in the back of my head that
my speech and/or brain has been made less efficient by my stubborn-ass
teachers.

And I lost the story I posted about earlier today (I mentioned a story I
wrote a couple of years ago, and it's one of a kind because I have never
really written anything of quality before or since - and this piece was
an extract of a story and only 3-4 A4 pages long, but was better than
many books I've read and now it's lost because I deleted the folder it
was in in a fit of anger only months after I threw away the hard copy
because I knew I had a digital one. Really devastated... and now I've
got this to think about)
Post by Diana Burgess
How sad that we were ever so backward as a people in thinking that
all people should act the same.
Yeah.

I'm going to post here some more, but I think I need a lie-down.

Rowe
--
AS! AA? i+ c+++ p+ n s+:- m P+ p++ M-- a18 t+ h-- f-- d- S++ e r-
--
You can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
You can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
Telnet over, it's a simple hack.
Port one-nineteen is where it's at.
and you can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
Diana Burgess
2004-07-04 14:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
Post by Diana Burgess
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
Anyway... when I don't do this, or at least when I have a
conversation in "real time" I often have the most annoying stutter,
since I can't really keep up, and I start leaving things out and
everyone gets confused, but if I try to focus I can keep it all in.
Can't really get rid of the stutter though, especially in emotional
or complicated things that I don't fully understand.
My daughter doesn't stutter. She has no speech impediment but maybe
because she does tend to "sit out" of long and detailed conversation.
Once she has lost the plot( of the conversation that is<G>) she tends
to not get invovled till it comes around to something she can grab
onto and interact about. The problem as I see it with already
preconcieved ideas of what the response is going to be is that does
she hear the "other" response or not.
I work out the most likely responses, and then while talking, I try to
work out the likelyhood that the response I'm being told is one of the
ones I've already worked out, because if I have already worked out that
response then I have already worked out some consequences and things so
I can continue the conversation as if I had worked all that stuff out on
the spot, when I had actually done it plenty of time before.
Maybe you need to also try to focus on the most unlikely responses too.
Oddly enough I have to do this when I am going to have a discussion with my
daughter that is likely to bring on an angry response from her. Because at
times we get so off track from the original topic and it is usually from
something she has thrown in from way off base(but at some point later will
have been relevant to the topic at hand) . This can take even a non autistic
person by surprise and leave you speechless! So I think of all things that
even remotely relate to what I have to talk to her about so that I am
prepard for where the discussion is going to wander.
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
And, on top of all that, I've got to try and work out if I've gone too
far, or not far enough, and whether what I'm saying is appropriate to
the subject - otherwise I'll have to rethink it again with slightly
different premises. It may be that the conversation has actually ended
already! Maybe they meant something else and the whole thing has turned
into puns or inuendos and I've got to completely go through everything
again in my head to find other meanings that someone might construe.
My daughter has trouble with this too. But she is such a "in your face"
emotional person that she rarely notices that what she said has gone too far
or it way off topic.She is very much like a dog with a bone.
But since we talked about her need to elaborate a little more things have
improved. And she is much happier about the fact that we can understand her
more easily.Conversation runs smoother.
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
By the time this whole thing's gone on - I need a sit down, or maybe
even more rest. I often feel breathless after a particularly stressful
conversation like that.
My daughter,once she has finished all that she wants to say, usually spends
several hours in her room by herslef. When she emerges she is quite calm and
it is like nothing happened.This can be extremely hard on us as we are often
left devestated by her "honesty" and total lack of respect for our feelings.
I know that sounds awful to say but we now realize too that we need to spend
time and analyse what she said to get to what she meant. A bit more of the
elaborating is needed at times like these;)
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
Post by Diana Burgess
I too stutter but not all the time. Before my husband and I married
we had a terrible fight one night(don't ask me what it was about.That
is truly lost in the mists of time.....) suddenly I couldnt speak a
word. Not one word. I went to the doctor and found out that my
tracheal valve had stuck open and that is why I couldn't speak.I was
on sedatives for a week or two to reduce my "need" to communicate and
let it rest. After a few days speech came back but I stuttered for
about two weeks after.
That sounds awful. Is there no treatment for it?
At the time when I lost my voice the doctor said that if the valve didn't
unstick itself that there was an operation that could close the valve but
that there was the risk of the valve then sticking CLOSED which can be
dangerous too as I could choke. Needless to say I was glad that my speech
came back. Mind you , these days modern medicine has probably removed that
risk but as I only suffer it occassionally I will leave well enough alone.
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
Post by Diana Burgess
He told me that he was naturally left handed but that when he was
young he had been forced to learn to use his right hand. He was
convinced that is what caused his stutter. He was thinking at normal
rate but for some reason couldn't get the words to come out at the
same speed that he was thinking them. The forced use of his right
hand had somehow casued his brian to slow this function down.
I wrote with my left hand until I was forced to use my left... and this
is only, what, 10-12 years ago. My Mum taught me to read when the school
couldn't, and then they went ahead and said that they couldn't teach me
to write unless I used the same hand as the teacher... or some bizarre
reason like that. I can't even remember where the school is or if it's
still open... we've moved a couple of times since.
Have you considered going back to your left hand? Can you still write with
your left hand?
I am VERY left handed. Everything I do is with my left hand.
I wonder if your brain could retrain itself back to the left? From my
understanding(and that is not on any professional level) when a person is
forced to do something that is not natural then those passages I mentioned
would need to find an alternate route to send the message. Is this why
people who are forced to use the right hand have the difficulty in getting
the thought to the mouth quickly? If the brain has had to reroute the
message then this is going to take longer isn't it? As I said no expert
here.
But worth thinking about.
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
Damn... now I'm going to have this thought in the back of my head that
my speech and/or brain has been made less efficient by my stubborn-ass
teachers.
I think it might be worth trying to revert back to your left hand to see if
this helps.
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
And I lost the story I posted about earlier today (I mentioned a story I
wrote a couple of years ago, and it's one of a kind because I have never
really written anything of quality before or since - and this piece was
an extract of a story and only 3-4 A4 pages long, but was better than
many books I've read and now it's lost because I deleted the folder it
was in in a fit of anger only months after I threw away the hard copy
because I knew I had a digital one. Really devastated... and now I've
got this to think about)
Did you know it well enough to rewrite it?
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
Post by Diana Burgess
How sad that we were ever so backward as a people in thinking that
all people should act the same.
Yeah.
I'm going to post here some more, but I think I need a lie-down.
Rowe
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wilson
2004-07-03 21:37:46 UTC
Permalink
This is all really interesting.

My husband has a stutter. He stutters only in specific situations
though. He does not stutter talking to me (anymore) and if you get him
started on science or something he is knowledgeable about, he does not
stutter. He does not stutter around our friends. He does stutter when
talking to either set of parents or to authority type figures. IE
people who make him nervous.

One of the reasons it took us 15 years of platonic friendship before
we got together is because this is how long it took to get through our
respective communication problems. We dominantly talked on-line,
through email etc. We COULD NOT talk voice and had a great deal of
difficulty in person for a long time.

After we became "intimate" he suddenly no longer stuttered around me!!

My speech problems are made worse in nervous type situations too. My
speech problems are not a "stutter" but rather a type of aphasia, my
mind frequently goes "blank". I also forget what objects are called.
It is most noticeable after you have been around me.

I frequently have to draw pictures/diagrams of things because I can't
describe something that is inside my head.

I have a great deal of difficulty communicating on the job or in a
classroom. I have some difficulty with my friends but not nearly as
much. My closest friends accept it.

I notice that as I get older, my "weird" mannerisms are more accepted
by others... strange. All of these things used to be *really* held
against me by people. Maybe I carry my "weirdness" differently now.
Rowe Rickenbacker
2004-07-03 22:53:12 UTC
Permalink
He does not stutter around our friends. He does stutter when talking
to either set of parents or to authority type figures. IE people who
make him nervous.
100% empathy here - that's almost exactly how I feel. I've tried public
speaking before, but I had to ignore the crowd, or if I used the
audience, I spoke about things that meant a lot to me like people with
disabilities being mistreated etc and I got very emotional and it kinda
failed and I got very embarassed...

Mainly the stuttering happens with, yes, parents, and other people like
work-types I don't know or who are higher up the chain than me.
Teachers, when I was at school. Friends - it was a mixed bag. If I was
talking about something that I was really nervous about or it was
something that stirred so much emotion that it was bubbling right under
the surface... then I'd be a stuttering fool, whether I tried to help it
or not :(
One of the reasons it took us 15 years of platonic friendship before
we got together is because this is how long it took to get through
our respective communication problems. We dominantly talked on-line,
through email etc. We COULD NOT talk voice and had a great deal of
difficulty in person for a long time.
After we became "intimate" he suddenly no longer stuttered around me!!
I must remember that... I stutter around my girlfriend a lot :(

We went out, what, 5-6 years ago, and we were both very physically shy,
and we flirted a bit, but it really didn't go anywhere, but we remained
friends nearly the whole time since, and then it got kinda flirty again
over this past 6-10 months and over the past month it's got, well,
rather more intimate. We haven't even tempted the physical side yet, but
we're better prepared and maybe a little more experienced with life and
people, so this time it might work.

My greatest fear is that not only am I looking at going into the RAF
(which could have me anywhere in the country, or the world) but she is
going to a University plenty of hours away from here, so even if I stay
here things are going to be hard. I really hate losing people I love,
and this relationship seems *long term* so... gah... why am I talking
about this in a post to someone I've never talked to before? Oh well,
this seems to be something I do :)

I would be really interested to learn more (hopefully from someone who
*knows*) all about stuttering, and possibly the autistic-type stuttering
that seems to be going on. Not sure if it's a shyness thing, or a
thinking thing... but I think there's something going on, and would like
to find out more somehow! I'll read up on google sometime for a start!
My speech problems are made worse in nervous type situations too. My
speech problems are not a "stutter" but rather a type of aphasia, my
mind frequently goes "blank". I also forget what objects are called.
It is most noticeable after you have been around me.
I frequently have to draw pictures/diagrams of things because I can't
describe something that is inside my head.
Typical me conversation:

"Let's go get the, uh... ah... it's like a Football, but more of a lemon
shape?"

"Uh, Rugby ball?"

"Yeah, that's the one! Let's go get that!"

:-D
I notice that as I get older, my "weird" mannerisms are more accepted
by others... strange. All of these things used to be *really* held
against me by people. Maybe I carry my "weirdness" differently now.
Everyone assumes your memory's going as you get older ;-) nah, but
really... I think that as people get older, they tend to accept the fact
that no one's perfect. No insult to anyone whose married intended, but a
lot of people realise this when they do find a permanent partner.
Generally you end up with someone you're happy with, or you end up
alone, but if you end up with someone, you're either perfect in every
way and bloody rich, or you do not marry a supermodel with a Ph.D - it's
not expected, and it doesn't happen (often)

I hope that (if my current relationship continues as I would like it to)
my partner understands this as well as I do... I'm not "settling for
someone below me" or any of that elitest crap. I'm with someone I love,
rather than a fantasy that I could never believe I could fulfill.

And I hope, if anything, that is what most people learn with age! :)

Rowe
--
AS! AA? i+ c+++ p+ n s+:- m P+ p++ M-- a18 t+ h-- f-- d- S++ e r-
--
You can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
You can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
Telnet over, it's a simple hack.
Port one-nineteen is where it's at.
and you can get anything you want on Alice's NNTP.
The autist formerly known as
2004-07-04 10:40:27 UTC
Permalink
I find it very hard to make speech uttarances at all at anything other than
a volume most people find disconcerting, when I try and drop the volume I
find it very hard to pronounce words, and the degree of concentration it
takes to modulate the volume takes up processing effort that is normally
taken by the content of my utterances so I find speech difficult altogether.

I find it very hard to speak in NAS meetings for instance and have to right
down what I want to say and read it out if I have something complex to say
beyond the usual well rehersed "rants"
--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
Post by Diana Burgess
My daughter doesn't stutter. She has no speech impediment but maybe because
she does tend to "sit out" of long and detailed conversation. Once she has
lost the plot( of the conversation that is<G>) she tends to not get invovled
till it comes around to something she can grab onto and interact about.
The problem as I see it with already preconcieved ideas of what the response
is going to be is that does she hear the "other" response or not.I will have
to ask when I see her next. Its the weekend and she is usually out till
Sunday night( oh to be young again).
Post by Rowe Rickenbacker
People are very patient, though - and when I had a recent job interview
for a warehouse job in a local supermarket, the person interviewing me
was very understanding and supportive since she saw that I was trying to
say things that meant a lot to me, but that there was a bit of a barrier
in the way. That is a really fantastic thing when you have problems
because of Autism, since you actually have a problem that people can
*see* when they talk to you, so you can hide all of the other problems
behind that and so really they just think I'm a bit shy with a stutter.
Rowe
I too stutter but not all the time. Before my husband and I married we had a
terrible fight one night(don't ask me what it was about.That is truly lost
in the mists of time.....) suddenly I couldnt speak a word. Not one word. I
went to the doctor and found out that my tracheal valve had stuck open and
that is why I couldn't speak.I was on sedatives for a week or two to reduce
my "need" to communicate and let it rest. After a few days speech came back
but I stuttered for about two weeks after.
Now if I get over emotional(thank goodness those days are few and far
between now) it happens again. I can feel it happen. My tongue drops to the
floor of my mouth and will not budge. When it happens I no longer try to
speak, I just rest it and speech comes back in a few hours and now only very
occassionally do I stutter after it.
But I learned a lot about what it is like to stutter in that two weeks. I
HATED it. People kept trying to preemt what I was saying which just made it
worse as I would have to try to say "no" when they got it wrong. No has to
be the hardest word to say if you stutter. I also found some to be cruel and
try to make your stutter worse just so they got a laugh.
I knew a boy once who had a terrible stutter when he had to speak to anyone
outside his family. Except me. This was before I had any stutter problems
myself and only ,I feel, because I let him finish his own sentence when I
spoke to him.He then didn't stutter anymore when he spoke to me.
BTW Did you know that you don't stutter if you whisper? I find this very
strange.But helpful in letting my family know that I am having "one of
those" moments.
Another point on stuttering. My primary school pricipal had a terrible time
with speech problems. But he was a brilliant man. When I was in grade 2 he
caught my teacher forcing me to write with my right hand and had made me sit
on my left( I am lefthanded in case you couldn't guess;))
He told her to never do it again. He then spent a few weeks with me after
school teaching me to write without the obvious lefthand backward writing
technique(of which I am very grateful to him for to this day as many who
have known me for years are stunned when they suddenly realize I am left
handed).He told me that he was naturally left handed but that when he was
young he had been forced to learn to use his right hand. He was convinced
that is what caused his stutter. He was thinking at normal rate but for some
reason couldn't get the words to come out at the same speed that he was
thinking them. The forced use of his right hand had somehow casued his brian
to slow this function down.
I saw on a doco once that when we are born our brain has many paths that the
electronic messages pass through to get our body to "do" the thing we want
it to do. Like when you watch a baby trying to reach out and grab a toy. At
first they miss all the time and then slowly they get closer and closer till
they can actually grab it. During this process the brain is sending these
electronic messages down these paths till it finds the right one to do the
job. Then all the other paths die off till only the one needed to perform
that task is left. By focing my principal to change the "learned " path of
his left hand brain function he lost the ability to speak as fast as he
thought.
How sad that we were ever so backward as a people in thinking that all
people should act the same.
Diana
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sam ende
2004-07-04 13:36:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by The autist formerly known as
I find it very hard to speak in NAS meetings for instance and have to
right down what I want to say and read it out if I have something
complex to say beyond the usual well rehersed "rants"
when i get unexpectedly 'mad' ie angry at the children i can have an
attack similar to asthma attack, where i choke can't breathe or speak.

sammi
sggaB
2004-07-05 01:55:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by The autist formerly known as
I find it very hard to make speech uttarances at all at anything other than
a volume most people find disconcerting, when I try and drop the volume I
find it very hard to pronounce words, and the degree of concentration it
takes to modulate the volume takes up processing effort that is normally
taken by the content of my utterances so I find speech difficult altogether.
I noticed I had a similar thing going on at Autreat, only with walking.
In that when I walked at all, I couldn't seem to stay at a walking pace; I
had to run.
--
This post may be more literal, unemotional, or impersonal than
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The autist formerly known as
2004-07-04 10:35:40 UTC
Permalink
This is the point, though that we need to define new paradigms of
communication which are seen as valid as the NT ones, in the same way one
acknowleges cultural differences.

Those of us who have the confidence to be ourselves really need to define
those paradigms and be proudly what we are as models to show that it is OK
to be autistic.

I would say the most positive impact of my being diagnosed is to legitimate
all of those things that were previosly seen as faults and are merely
differences.

That is not to say some understanding of why NT's act as they do is not as
helpful to us as the knowlege of autism would be to them.
--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
Post by Diana Burgess
I can tell you that this is what most people have difficulty with my
daughter about. She just does not acknowledge that she has understood or
heard what you said. I now know that she has but still find it frustrating
when I don't know if she understood what I said. That is when we get into
really nasty arguments as the normal thing to do in those situations to to
repeat yourself to get that acknowledgement. Especially if it is important.
She has an absolute hatred of people repeating themselves.
I have since talked to her about this and she is going to try to acknowledge
more and is succeeding. And to elaborate when she is speaking. But we have
now figured the reason for that. She has most conversations in her head
first or when she is the"body asleep/mind awake" state. So when she comes to
have the "actual" conversation it is the second time for her so she "skips"
the (to her) unimportant parts of the conversation leaving us bewildered as
to what she is saying. And of course then to ask her to REPEAT it is very
aggravating to her. Now that we(us and her) have realized this she is
finding conversation much easier to enter and enjoy. She is also talking to
US as if it is for the first time.The thought process is happening at the
same time as the conversation if that makes sense. So that when the
conversation doesn't go according the one she had "by herself" she is not
disappointed and can cope with it going in another direction....as long as
it doesn't happen too quick for her.
I can tell you that once we had this all figured out I was able to cope
better too. Maybe, if this is the same for you, your friend may need to know
this.
Hope this helps
Diana in Aus
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Hylander
2004-07-03 20:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
Happens to me too. Or, I "thinkI' I'm responding but I've often gone
back onto a tangent of mine. They think I didn't listen. Or they'll
say, "but you haven't answered my question." and then I'll realize,
oh, yah, you're right. I have discovered some short term memory issues
that cause some of this. If I focus hard enough, I can get around it
but it is exhausting and hard to control and others seem to do such
with ease and can do such very easily. I once noticed a judge and how
well they listen. They have to listen very very well. They were very
responsive to the issues. I noticed how hard it was for me to come to
the same conclusions as the judge based on things the judge was
picking up. I realized I didn't get all the information. Either I
can't pick up the verbal information (CAPD) or shortly thereafter, it
is lost (short term memory). I sometimes think I have a recording of
the verbal information in my mind (enough to reply if they abruptly
ask "so what do you think?" and it is then that I start very hard
trying to interpret the words and then I can often reply. But so much
streaming can be lost on me unless it happens to "click" with me. Some
speakers can "click" into my mind...but still, my mind will be "donig
its own thing" sometimes. All people have this to an extent but I
think an autistic's mind will carry a lot of monologue in their mind
and when they speak, it just is "monologue" out loud.

HTH

John
The autist formerly known as
2004-07-04 10:23:35 UTC
Permalink
If you were a fly on the wall during my visits to an old friend you would
observe much that is strange.

We rarely look at each other when we talk, and conversations can continue
when one of us has left the room and the other not noticed.

However we can often finish each others conversations as we tend to talk
about the same things all the time.

I don't really talk to people so much as at them. You might even make the
same observations from the tenor of my emails :)
--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
The autist formerly known as
2004-07-04 10:31:38 UTC
Permalink
I don't really know anything about the basis on which other people form
there friendships or what degree of friend this person is.

All I know is that my most secure friends are those who like the essential
me, beneath any "mask" I might put on and can understand that surface
emotional support is something I just don't do because I can't. They realise
that any support I give is genuine and not a set of placatory social signals
designed subconciosly to defuse a mood.
--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
Post by wilson
My friend says I talk to him like he is not there. What does this
mean?? Other people have said it too.
Once I had a "breakthrough" once where I intuitively knew what this
meant - for about a day. I've forgotten. I have learned it before but
I seem to not be able to retain this information.
Somebody please explain to me what this means?
He has tried to explain over and over to no avail and has given up.
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